# Some questions on finishing my 14' mod v mod



## Macrosill (Jan 29, 2017)

I started this almost 3 years ago. I did get some work dine but never finished. The boat sits as it did in this thread : https://forum.tinboats.net/viewtopic.php?t=33154

After 2 back surgeries and other things in life that get in the way of hobbies I am ready to continue on. 

I have almost convinced myself to take all the wood framing out and redo it with aluminum angle. Either 1x1/8 or 1 1/2x1/8. Any suggestions to just keep the wood or definitely redo it in aluminum. I only want to do this once. I have a Fastenal close buy but have found them to be very expensive. I was thinking of either going with HD angle or order online.

My biggest hold up in the past was I did not want to breach the hull with new solid rivets but I think I am going to do that, all above the water line, to really make the frame solid and add back the support from taking the middle bench out. 

I am planning on using pop rivets, aluminum with ss mandrels to secure to the inner structure. Then use solid aluminum rivets to attach to the hull above the water line. 

Then I plan on decking with plywood sealed with either spar varnish or epoxy paint. Then carpet.

I also plan on adding pink or blue foam under the deck to replace the foam lost in the removal of the middle seat and then add more due to the added weight.

At this point I am thinking on adding some long storage along the sides of the boat. This will allow me to deck the main area a bit lower in the boat.

This is the "Grand Plan" I have right now. But plans change and change often.

So, now that you know the plan I have a few questions.
First, any thoughts or suggestions on the "plan" of redoing the framing in aluminum?
Second, solid rivets above the water line, should I add some 3M 5200 or is it not needed?
Third, When riveting to the inner structure with pop rivets should I add some 3M 5200 in addition to the rivets?


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## richg99 (Jan 29, 2017)

I've never done what you are doing, so I can't help much. 
I do believe that one of the old timers here (maybe Johnny) suggested using Super Glue and "wicking" it into the rivet holes, rather than 3M5200.

richg99


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## Johnny (Jan 29, 2017)

Macro - fasteners above the waterline do not leak.
if by chance they are leaking, you have more severe issues than leaking rivets !



question: why do you want to use aluminum pop rivets with the SS mandrel ??
I am a big fan of aluminum angle and square tubing for any kind of boat fabrication.
If done correctly, 1/2" ext. plywood is an excellent choice for decks and flooring.
There is no need to use solid rivets for above the waterline fasteners.
pop rivets will provide adequate holding power - while the solid rivets often require two people.
a big hassle if you are new to the rivet game. 
a short video on pop rivets: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAWPo8F-gXc&t=185s

it was _Pappy_ that advocates the super glue (thin or medium) to seal loose rivets.







.


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## Macrosill (Jan 30, 2017)

Johnny said:


> Macro - fasteners above the waterline do not leak.
> if by chance they are leaking, you have more severe issues than leaking rivets !
> 
> 
> ...


I have read here on Tin Boats that the aluminum rivets with stainless steel mandrels hold better than the aluminum mandrels because the stainless takes more force to snap thereby clamping with more force before snapping. Just what I read. Is this really not a concern?

As for the solid rivets above the water line, I guess it is somewhat of a psychological thing. Holes in a hull are bad! LOL. The areas I plan on mounting angle to the hull are reachable on both sides by one person. Mostly withing 6-18 inches below the gunwales, well within arms reach.


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## Macrosill (Feb 1, 2017)

As for the aluminum framing, I plan on using standard pop rivets. I have seen some use 2, 3 or even 4 rivets per joint. How many rivets per joint are really necessary? 

Any aluminum framing tips?

I am thinking of going with 1x1x1/8 angle. Any issue with this size angle?

1/2" plywood will be used for the decking. I am thinking of going with the same for the vertical boards as well. And probably 1/4" ply to trim out the gunwales. Any suggestion against that plan?

Piano hinges for the storage lids.

I was planning on carpet but now may go vinyl. Maybe a mix of vinyl for the main floor and carpet for the rest.

Planning on a layout like this :


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## Johnny (Feb 1, 2017)

pertaining to the solid rivets: I just ran across an older thread
authored by our local RivetMeister and Metallurgist, DaleH.

*"Typically the length of the tail of the unformed rivet should protrude 
about 1-1/2 to 2 times the rivet shank diameter from the back side 
of the surface being riveted. And when bucked properly, the tail will 
expand or 'mushroom' to about 1-1/2 times the rivet shank diameter.

A good tip is to practice riveting, as only a few will let you know if your parts 
and technique are sound. 'Tis better to waste some rivets and some 
scrap materials beforehand than to blow it because one couldn't be bothered to test their setup.

Be aware that too much of a tail can cause the rivet to tilt off-center 
and not seal as good as a properly cut-to-length rivet. Worse it can egg the hole ..." *





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## BigTerp (Feb 2, 2017)

Don't be afraid of solid rivets below the waterline. I was hesitant at first to do this to mine as well, but did not have a choice when I replaced my transom. Properly set solid rivets with a dab of 5200 are watertight. I've not had a problem with any that I have done in the past 3-4 years, and I'm pretty hard on my boat. I put a little 5200 on all of my solid rivets, even if they are above the waterline. Although I don't think it's necessary to do so above the waterline. I do not use any 5200 on my blind (pop) rivets that I used for framing and securing my floor and deck. 

I used 1" x 1" x 1/8" angle for the framing fastened with closed end aluminum blind rivets on my boat and it's rock solid. I don't remember the spacing I used for the rivets though. I also used aluminum sheet as opposed to wood for my floor and extended deck. The pros to going all aluminum are weight and durability. The cons are cost and it's not as easy to work with as wood. IMO, aluminum is superior to wood for framing and flooring in our type of boats. But if you go with aluminum for your framing and wood for your floor/decks, it will still be a nice upgrade. It will save you a bit of weight and if your flooring ever needs replaced it will be an easier swap to just replace the floor and not have to worry with redoing all the framing.


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## Macrosill (Feb 2, 2017)

I have been fixated on the storage lid hinges. I am trying to come up with a hinge that will be hidden under the deck but still allow the storage lids to fold over completely. Piano hinges protrude above the decking slightly. 

In my search I found these:


https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/32854309

I am not sure if they will clear 1" when opened, 1/2 " for the deck and 1/2" for the lid. I may order one to try.

Has anyone found something similar or already solved my dilemma with something I have not seen yet?

edit: Another option I just thought of is to have some sort of support under the deck so I can mount a standard euro type hinge on a vertical surface of the deck and then the lid would only have to open 90 degrees. This may be a better way to go. Thoughts?


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## Macrosill (Feb 3, 2017)

After searching through pages and pages of mod builds I am thinking about removing all the seats and start with an empty hull. Then lay down a complete floor, bow to stern. Then start my build from there. instead of piecing sections between the 2 remaining seats.

I would add foam under the floor the entire length as well as any unused crevices to make up for the lost foam from the seats. Also the aluminum angle I will be using to build the platforms would replace the seats that connect the gunwales together. And the side storage areas will replace some of the strength that was lost when the middle seat was removed.

Thoughts on starting with an empty hull vs keeping to front and rear seat in place and working around them?


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## Johnny (Feb 3, 2017)

.

in my world, that is exactly what I would do and have done in the past.
starting from a fresh canvas is always the path of least resistance.
try not to poke holes in the hull that you can't patch yourself.

good plan !!






.


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## Macrosill (Feb 3, 2017)

Finally found a build that is close to what I am planning.

https://forum.tinboats.net/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=32265&hilit=aluminum+angle&start=75


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## Johnny (Feb 3, 2017)

good find !

I know it is a long way down the river, but, the hinge photo that
you posted is made of steel - it will rust. (there may be stainless ones available).
I have never seen it before. I am guessing you mount it like a kitchen cabinet door ??











The piano hinge that I have used is like this one.
it comes in brass, aluminum and stainless.
assorted sizes, standard 6' length. fits flush with the deck. (no trip hazard).
it is not for a waterproof hatch.
you would have to google it for a source.
hatch covers and hinges are another hot topic on the forum.

good luck



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## richg99 (Feb 3, 2017)

You might find something here..

https://www.overtons.com/?s_kwcid=adwords_overton_&device=c&network=g&matchtype=p&gclid=CjwKEAiA8dDEBRDf19yI97eO0UsSJAAY_yCSS8phwoi_GBZZzC5l7gG8SsGOZpjjRqKuhTv5Lp8dmRoCjubw_wcB

richg99


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## Macrosill (Feb 3, 2017)

Johnny said:


> good find !
> 
> I know it is a long way down the river, but, the hinge photo that
> you posted is made of steel - it will rust. (there may be stainless ones available).
> ...


Aluminum version: https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/32854341?fromRR=Y
but it is listed for over 16 dollars each. Ouch!

I did not know they made piano type hinges that sit flush to the deck. Do those hinges allow the lid to fold open completely and rest on the deck or do they keep the lid up in the air?


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## Macrosill (Feb 3, 2017)

richg99 said:


> You might find something here..
> 
> https://www.overtons.com/?s_kwcid=adwords_overton_&device=c&network=g&matchtype=p&gclid=CjwKEAiA8dDEBRDf19yI97eO0UsSJAAY_yCSS8phwoi_GBZZzC5l7gG8SsGOZpjjRqKuhTv5Lp8dmRoCjubw_wcB
> 
> richg99



Thanks for the link Rich.


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## Johnny (Feb 3, 2017)

the offset marine piano hinge folds all the way back
and the hatch cover will lay flat on the deck.


Please excuse my rudimentary drawing

I have some of these hinges in a box somewhere.
I recently moved and all boat stuff is still boxed up.

examples of how the offset marine hinge looks with carpet


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## Macrosill (Feb 3, 2017)

No tripping hazard and opens flat, Perfect!


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## Macrosill (Feb 4, 2017)

Under deck storage? I see some use Rubbermaid type totes for their storage compartments. I do not plan on a live well as I catch and release 100 percent. I plan on the bow compartment to just be open to stow the anchor, life jackets and such. I will have 2, maybe 3 more storage compartments in the bow. 1 for the 2 batteries and the other 2 for general fishing supplies. Side lockers, maybe for rods or just general storage. In the rear I am not planning on any storage as of now.

Thoughts on using tote bins vs just plywood storage compartments?

If using plywood lines storage, carpet vs paint?


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## mrdrh99 (Feb 5, 2017)

I'm about to do mine and I'm going to fit plastic containers that can lift out if needed.


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## Macrosill (Feb 8, 2017)

The plan thus far:
1" x 1/8 aluminum angle for the framing. Currently planning on 15 6' lengths. I still have to measure to make sure that is enough.
3/16 x 1/2" aluminum pop rivets. Some solid aluminum rivets where the framing needs to be secured to the outer hull. 
1/2" plywood for the decking.
Vinyl or paint for the main floor and carpet for the upper decking.
Offset piano type hinges for the storage lids with recessed latches.
Storage compartments made of plywood. Probably painted vs carpet.
All wood sealed with either paint or old timers formula base on finish type.
Pink or blue foam stuffed in any available space not utilized by storage compartments.

Thoughts and/or suggestions?


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## Johnny (Feb 8, 2017)

I have been looking at the off-set aluminum piano hinges
and they have REALLY gone up in price since I bought some 
5 years ago. almost $10 per foot on the average.
If you can not find any within your budget, you can check into
how much a 2" wide flat hinge is and then check your local metal fab
shop to see how much their bending fee is. My local metal shop charges $5 per bend.
MSC has the 2"x72" alum hinge for $19. so with the $10 to bend = $29 each total
vs $60 if you bought it already off-set. plus - you can have it bent to your exact specs.
basically, you could could look at it as two custom formed hinges for the price of one factory off-set.

just something for you to research before you get to that stage of your build.


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## Macrosill (Feb 8, 2017)




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## overboard (Feb 8, 2017)

Do you have a fab or machine shop close to you, maybe a buddy that works in one? I have found it is a lot cheaper to buy bulk aluminum angle in 25' lengths than to buy it in 8' pieces. If needed, just cut it down to manageable length for transport when you pick it up.


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## Macrosill (Feb 8, 2017)

overboard said:


> Do you have a fab or machine shop close to you, maybe a buddy that works in one? I have found it is a lot cheaper to buy bulk aluminum angle in 25' lengths than to buy it in 8' pieces. If needed, just cut it down to manageable length for transport when you pick it up.



Unfortunately I do not know anyone anywhere involved in any type of metal working field.


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## richg99 (Feb 8, 2017)

I found aluminum angle at a local scrap metal place. It wasn't a bargain, but was fairly priced. 

They had all of the tools to cut/bend etc.. Might check a few out. There seems to be one or more near every town in the USA.

richg99


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## richg99 (Feb 8, 2017)

I've only owned one or two tiller boats, so I don't have a lot of experience on this topic. 

But, when I was looking around for my present 1652 VBW G3, some of the tiller boats had the back bench cut in half. Each half then had the inside corner cut off. 

It appeared to me that that configuration would allow a tiller operator, sitting on the back bench, additional areas in which to swing his legs. Just a thought. richg99


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## Macrosill (Feb 12, 2017)

When I got the boat I picked up a 9.9 outboard for gas lakes.
The boat came with a transom mount trolling motor. It is an old unit. A Minn Kota Model 4hp, 24v. No idea about any other specs, not even what size breaker I would need. I can not find much info about it online. It seems it was sold at Sears in the 80's. No manual available and Minn Kota does not have any available info either. I tried calling them directly. 

I am toying with the idea of using the trolling motor as is on electric only lakes until it gives up the ghost or replace it with a new 55 or more thrust unit. Cost is the bigget factor as the larger electric units are upwards of 500 bucks and I will be putting all my spare change into the mod as is.
The batteries will be in the bow to offset the weight when I am alone in the stern. The bow rides really high with me and the batteries in the stern. I tried that once! LOL

Thoughts? Suggestions?


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## richg99 (Feb 12, 2017)

Let's see...batteries already moved to the front for balance. Boat rides high in the bow. Nice new deck on the bow.

I'd seriously consider making the transom mount trolling motor into a bow mount. All that is required is to be able to "switch the head" around and to fabricate a mount. There are many pictures, on this site, of home-made bow mounts for converted transom TMs.

You'd gain....better control of the boat by PULLING it instead of Pushing it. More weight up front. 
You wouldn't have to pull heavy-duty wiring from bow to stern to run the TM.

Anyhow, that would be my thought on the matter.

richg99


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## Macrosill (Feb 16, 2017)

Rich,
With the batteries in the bow and the deck in its current form the boat rides nice. I will bee keeping it in that config but good point on the trolling motor in the front. I will see how things progress as the rebuild comes along as soon as it warms up a bit.

All,
Should I 
1. Frame the floor and deck it front to back. Then build the upper decks and storage on top of the main deck or...
2. Frame the entire boat and fit the decking as needed

If I do one large floor deck front to back then I would have a nice solid foundation to frame the upper decks and storage without worrying about supports in specific areas. However, if I ever need to replace the main deck I would have to completely dismantle the entire boat framing.

If I frame the whole boat and then fit decking as needed then I can replace decking much easier but would have to be a bit more calculated for support framing for the upper decks and storage.

What are your thoughts? Anything I have missed?

I am leaning towards option 2.


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## Macrosill (Mar 4, 2017)

I am getting ready to place my order for the aluminum framing. Just want to make sure the material will be strong enough. While I would love to say cost is of no concern that would not be reality. I am planning on ordering 1 x 1 x 1/8 6061 T6 aluminum angle. The 1" material is half the cost of the same material in 1.5" width. 1.25" is right in the middle of the others. 

Will the 1" angle be strong enough? I think so but am hoping for some reassurance before I place the order.


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## Macrosill (Mar 4, 2017)

I deconstructed the previously done wood framing after dragging the boat out of the garage into 30 degree weather with lots of wind.
I did some measuring and drawing. Based on some loose measurements I need 75 linear feet to do just the main floor and side lockers. Another 28 for the front casting deck. This is with keeping the front and rear benches.

That is aprox. 15 8' lengths. 

I am going to remove the front and rear benches so I am going to have to add some more framing. I am going to add 50 % to the order and get 22 8' lengths. This should be enough I think.

The benches contain aprox. 16920 cu in of foam. To replace that I will need to add back aprox. 2.4 sheets of 4x8x1.5" foam.


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## Macrosill (Mar 4, 2017)

I lied. I ordered 25 8 footers and got free shipping!

One thing I completely forgot about until this morning was storage for the oars. Make sure you figure that into your storage plan before building.


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## Tman (Mar 6, 2017)

Macrosill said:


> I am planning on using pop rivets, aluminum with ss mandrels to secure to the inner structure. Then use solid aluminum rivets to attach to the hull above the water line.



I am terribly far behind but for all of the rivets I removed out of my boat i replaced with 3m 5200 and closed end Rivets

i believe i used 3/16", drill out the existing rivet and drill the hole larger to the new rivet.

https://www.amazon.com/Astro-1423-13-Inch-Heavy-Riveter/dp/B0039697ME/ref=sr_1_5?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1488828431&sr=1-5

this was the tool i used to set the extra large rivets. quite a chest workout when popping 100+ holes but doable.


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## Tman (Mar 6, 2017)

Macrosill said:


> One thing I completely forgot about until this morning was storage for the oars. Make sure you figure that into your storage plan before building.



Telescoping paddles save a lot of space.

https://www.cabelas.com/product/Attwood-Telescoping-Paddle/2250805.uts?productVariantId=4495442&WT.tsrc=PPC&WT.mc_id=GoogleProductAds&WT.z_mc_id1=04364657&rid=20&gclid=COqUq8TPwtICFUUjgQodCW8Mbg&gclsrc=aw.ds

I used a kayak paddle holder by attawood 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/ATTWOOD-KAYAK-PADDLE-HOLDER/50511566
you can mount it almost anywhere, even underneath a hatch door


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## Macrosill (Mar 7, 2017)

Telescoping paddles look like a nice solution.

My aluminum angle is scheduled to be delivered today. The solid rivets should arrive tomorrow. That means I have to get to Harbor Freight for the rivet gun and air hammer. Then to Home Depot or Lowes to get some aluminum pop rivets. The bimetal bandsaw blade should be here tomorrow as well I hope.

I will start a 2.0 build thread in the Mod forum as soon as I start, hopefully in the next few days. Good thing I am off the rest of the week. Just hope the weather plays nice.

I have some carpet and vinyl samples and will probably go with 20 oz carpet.

Wish me luck in this venture. I hope to be out on the water this spring.


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## RustyGoat (Mar 9, 2017)

[/quote]



this was the tool i used to set the extra large rivets. quite a chest workout when popping 100+ holes but doable.[/quote]
I bought an air riveter (Campbell Hausfeld) for like $60 on Amazon before I started the build I'm currently working on. I'm over 100 rivets in and it's definitely worth every penny and speeds things up a lot. I also recommend some good sharp drill bits. I started out with an old bit I had laying around and after buying some new bits I couldn't believe how much easier it was to drill the holes.


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## Johnny (Mar 10, 2017)

I purchased two of the 4' telescoping paddles like shown above.
the next time out, I had to use one.
my bass boat has a high freeboard and it was very uncomfortable
bending over the side to paddle to shore.
I will never have another telescoping paddle. 5 or 6ft wood only.
I suggest you try them out next time you are out in your boat
just to familiarize yourself with the product. (and all safety gear as well).


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## Macrosill (Mar 10, 2017)

Unfortunately Mother Nature is no cooperating with my plans. I have the boat, aluminum angle, solid rivets, hollow rivets, riveting tools but it just snowed about 6 inches here and we are getting another 3-5 with a Noreaster on Tuesday. All of next week is booked solid too. Maybe the last week in March or 1st week of April will be better. Ugh.


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## Hanr3 (Mar 12, 2017)

Your build looks a lot like mine Sylvan project. See link in my signature. I posted videos instead of a ton of pictures. Questions please ask.

Things I like about your plan, its simple, aluminum framed, marine boat hinges, and marine grade plywood deck. You may be able to add a rod locker under the cabin deck, take a look at my build. It all comes down to fractions of inches to make it all work.

Glad to see your making progress again.


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## Macrosill (Mar 13, 2017)

I have decided to stick with the full size oars that came with the boat. I will have a storage locker long enough for them. The only issue is the middle bench is no longer installed so I would have to kneel and row, row the boat backwards, good luck with that, or put a seat mount in the middle of the floor so I can have a seat to row from. I am glad I am figuring all these things out now instead of after the build.

The Harbor Freight air hammer and the Northern Tool solid rivet set kit are not working together. The shanks on the Northern Tool attachments do not fit in the air hammer barrel. I am going to have to file them down to get them to slide in. Also the retaining spring will not fit around the front of the Northern Tool bits. I will have to "open" the spring a bit. Does this sound right or did I get the wrong items? I have the Harbor Freight 61244 medium barrel air hammer with chisel. All items indicate .401 shank but something is off.

I always enjoy looking at prior build to "steal" ideas from. Thanks Hanr3

Since we are getting a blizzard tomorrow and temps in the 20s until next weekend I have not done anything on the build yet, other than take out the old wooden parts. I brought home the Harbor Freight air hammer for my solid rivets and the air hydraulic riveter for the pop rivets. I was going to get the heavy duty rivet tool but the pneumatic tool seems so much easier, especially with all those rivets I will be popping!

I also installed the bimetal blade on my band saw to make easy work of cutting the aluminum angle.


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## Macrosill (Mar 13, 2017)

I chucked the 3/16 rivet setting bit into a drill and used a file to take down the diameter so it smoothly actuates. I also spread the retaining spring. Problem solved.


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## richg99 (Mar 13, 2017)

Yeah, you have to modify lots of tools these days.


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## Johnny (Mar 13, 2017)

I have a vintage air chisel that I had to heat the retaining spring
to drop the temper - some of that old steel is just plain brutal to work with.
but when it works properly, you can't beat it !

Spring will be here before you know it !!!!


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## Macrosill (Mar 17, 2017)

Another 4-7 inches of the white stuff coming Sat night and Sun. Maybe next week I can start some work.


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## Macrosill (Apr 8, 2017)

Mod started https://www.forum.tinboats.net/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=42864&p=432351#p432351


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## Macrosill (Apr 9, 2017)

A word of advice. I used my benchtop band saw with a bimetal blade. After some cutting the blade got clogged with aluminum bits and needed cleaning. I also had to do cuts by hand as the bandsaw does not have the throat depth when cutting large pieces. I since have ordered a non-ferrous metal cutting blade for my 10" chop saw. I will use this going forward for cleaner faster cuts.

https://www.amazon.com/D1080N-Diablo-10-Inch-Non-Ferrous-PermaShield/dp/B00008WQ38/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1491750004&sr=8-3&keywords=diablo+non+ferrous+blade


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## Macrosill (May 23, 2017)

Framing is done and now onto the next phase.

The next phase brings some more questions.

I was planning on using regular black/red 12awg zip cord in the black split loom for protection. I am now seeing marine duplex cable. Benefits of the duplex over the other? Freshwater only here.

Electrically, I have a 24v trolling motor as my main motor on electric only lakes. I was going to pull from one of the batteries for the fishfinder and 12v accessory outlets but am now thinking of adding a smaller separate battery for the auxiliary loads.

Decking: was planning on 3/4 plywood but an thinking 1/2 plywood now. The question is the hinges for the hatches. I am not sure what size offset hinges to go with on either plan. The dimensions are somewhat sketchy online. If I can not find the hinges with the proper offset I may just pick up a bender from Harbor Freight and get some 4" aluminum continuous hinges and bend them myself. Thoughts?

Foam: I am planning on lots of 1" foam stuffed everywhere I can fit it. I want to line most storage compartments with foam and possibly an frp skin to protect hull and the foam. I am guessing spray adhesive. Any better ways of lining storage compartments? Maybe just carpet over the foam and go with multiple layers of 1/2" foam to help with the curves?


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