# outboard opinions - used 2 stroke or new 4 stroke



## maddog (Apr 4, 2015)

I am torn between buying an early 1970's johnson/evinrude 4hp weedless 2 stroke or a new 2.5hp yamaha 4 stroke or merc 3.5hp 4stroke. 

older motor benefits:
weedless drive
remote gas tank (longer run time)
more power
slightly lighter weight
save $300-$400 (after repairing any worn 40 year old parts)
very easy to replace tiller handle with longer unit for driving from the middle of canoe

new motor benefits:
neutral gear selector vs. always in gear
twist grip throttle vs. throttle lever on side of motor
quieter
better fuel efficiency
5 year warranty
spare prop ~$40 vs. $80 for older motor
no leaky, smelly gas line fittings to deal with
no mixing gas or smoke trail

I will be primarily using this for a s13 meyer sportspal squareback canoe I bought last summer, and may occasionally use on one of my 12-14' aluminum rowboats. I will be running primarily in small lakes and "deep" rivers, sometimes on shallower streams or rivers. 

So, given all that info, which way would others lean toward? I can do any and all repairs as long as I can get parts, so the cost of labor is not an issue.

EDIT: Since some will likely suggest an electric motor: I do already have a small electric troller - 30 lb. - that works well on the "electric only" lake where I live, but I want a gas outboard for longer range and less weight. My battery weighs around 60lbs and the minnkota probably around 20lbs so gas would be lighter and not require a charger and extension cord when I go on fishing/camping trips. Gas is more easily portable than a charger and small generator in some of the areas I like to camp. The canoe does not solo paddle at all, so an outboard is pretty much required. It rows fine but I can't row and fish very well at the same time...


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## lckstckn2smknbrls (Apr 4, 2015)

If your not in a big hurry to get a motor watch for an older 4hp deluxe. It has Forward, neutral and reverse.


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## maddog (Apr 4, 2015)

do those weigh much more than the standard 4hp? I would like to keep it around 35-40lbs. The remote gas tank would be nice to help balance the boat out by moving the tank to the front of the canoe.


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## lckstckn2smknbrls (Apr 4, 2015)

I don't know what they weigh, Sorry.


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## maddog (Apr 4, 2015)

Thank you very much for the suggestion. Just looked that motor up. Wow, that would be really nice! supposedly around 40lbs. Not too bad, I am ~180 so 40lbs. of motor in the back isn't bad. The 2.5 yamaha is 38 dry, probably over 40 with gas/oil etc... The deluxe has a remote tank so the gas weight would be not on the transom.

I didn't know any of the small outboards came with reverse. I will keep my eye out for one of those as well. I hear the weedless foot really works well on the older johnson-rudes. I have one of the Mac's river runner prop protectors I bought in the cabelas bargain cave several years ago just because it was so cheap, maybe that would have a similar effect as the weedless foot in the shallows? I have no idea, maybe it would make traversing weeds even worse.


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## nowgrn4 (Apr 4, 2015)

I'm running a 3.3 HP Johnrude on my 17' Grumman canoe. I have a Belgium made 2HP Johnrude also that I used to run. Even with the 2HP I can't run more than half throttle. All it does is make more noise and drink more gas at higher throttle settings. It really doesn't go much faster. I would assume it has something to do with the hull shape(Displacement Hull?). I would go with the 2.5HP. The 4HP is probably overkill.


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## maddog (Apr 4, 2015)

Thank you for the real world use feedback! That is exactly what I was hoping for.

I had read of people claiming to have issues pushing 2 guys and gear upstream in a canoe with these smaller outboards, and that a few extra HP sometimes help. I have no idea, I have never run a boat upstream in rivers with really swift current, I always walked and sometimes wished my legs had more horsepower at times! I am not concerned with speed, just with getting to where I want to fish! I figured using a 4hp at 1/4 throttle may be just as speedy and a lot less noisy than a 2hp running WOT and you have the extra power there if ever needed. It may well depend more on the prop size and pitch - maybe the slightly larger motors have larger props on them which made the difference these people talked about? I have no idea. I did find an evinrude 4hp deluxe (f-n-r) like 2smokinbarrels mentioned in excellent shape for sale about an hour away. Supposedly those had the 6hp lower end so maybe that has a bigger prop that would make a difference?

Did you ever have any issues going upstream with your canoe and the 2hp? Some of the streams and rivers I like to fish for salmon/steelhead have very strong current and I don't want to be caught underpowered is all. I definitely agree that most of the time on most lakes (as long as the wind isn't crazy), a small outboard or even my 30lb. trolling motor are more than adequate. Heck of a lot faster than me paddling in circles in this wide, flat bottom, square back canoe!


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## nowgrn4 (Apr 5, 2015)

You raise an interesting point about fast current that I didn't consider in my prior assessment. In general the current in the rivers down here runs pretty slow compared to many in more rugged topography. Believe me since my DW and I bought the Grumman back in '74 there are not many rivers down here we haven't explored. We never had a problem making way in any current with the 2HP even with camping gear. I had a 4HP light twin that I used on another boat that I tried once back in the late 70's on the side mount. It was a little too heavy compared to the 2HP and I went back to the 2. One great feature of the Light Twin was the weed eater lower unit. You could trim it so far back that shallow water and sliding over submerged logs was effortless. Is your hull a planing hull like a Gheenoe? What is the max HP rating?


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## maddog (Apr 5, 2015)

It is not a planing hull, but I am not really interested in getting the boat to plane. More interested in having enough push to make it through heavy current when needed. I guess maybe being on plane would make going upstream easier since there would be less drag...

The manufacturer said the transom is designed to hold the weight of a 3HP 4 stroke (as many of you know the horsepower rating guidelines were changed in the early 80's and there is a +/- 10% variance allowed in HP ratings claims, so a 1968 4HP could potentially have nearly the same output as a well tuned 1985 3HP at the same overall weight) so I would like to keep weight around 40lbs. The older 4HP johnson/evinrude motors I am looking at do have the weedless foot and I was wondering how well that worked on a canoe. Many of the rivers have logs and rocks and I had read the weedless foot works really good when navigating rivers with obstructions.


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## maddog (Apr 5, 2015)

I think I will go the 2.5-3.5 hp 4 stroke route. That should be plenty of horsepower and give me a very reliable, quiet and fuel efficient motor. The additional low end torque of the 4 stroke would likely allow me to put a "power pitch" prop on if I need more grunt for making it upstream. I can carry a 2-3 gallon spare gas can in the front to balance things out and extend my range like a remote tank would. The enclosed tank will likely be cleaner than the fuel hoses and leaky fittings (I currently have 3 outboards that all have remote tanks and I hate all the mess, even the new EPA fittings on my 2012 yamaha 20hp leak terribly). I will keep my eye out for a good price on one of the weedless drive 4hp units just to restore and play around with. It would likely be great on my 12' aerocraft rowboat also. Now the problem is that I also have to add the 4hp deluxe model to my list of must-have fishing gear!


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## rodknee1231 (Apr 5, 2015)

I got a 9.5 hp Johnson it's a tank man that thing stars first pull every time I have cruised for 20 to 30 mins with the throttle pinned and haven't as much as a misfire.


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## WaterWaif (Apr 5, 2015)

A four horse would be well under max. h.p. on most 12-14 boats but I have run one on a 12 ft. since late eighties. It beats rowing but if in a hurry for some reason it almost wants me to run the trolling motor or row,or paddle,or rock forwards and back.
Good on gas though and the saddle tank is out of the way. Just need to keep an eye on which way the gas line is wrapped when turning the motor around to go backwards ( reverse without a lever,how clever);after checking for any obstacles because motor won't tip up in that position when striking one.
It would be just a wee bit over my canoe rating though.
If long or hard portaging was a factor I would consider the lighter models, though risking too little h.p. for the boat..
Too what position can the motor be carried in if oil is in it (if not trailering on the craft) and can it be carried in multiple positions if you portage. You may not haul it separate but if you take both the canoe and a boat and clam shell them to travel it might get hauled on it's side? Does not mean a four stroke won,t be usable, just some would need more consideration than a two stroke.
Depends on you use....my four horse 2 stroke weighs under forty pounds , 35lbs. for standard and 37lbs. for longshaft.
The h.p. be worth it unless weight is a priority.
The closer to max. h.p. the more rapid response in handling(within reason). 
Two different sized motors would be better balanced; but if only one...the four horse for sure.
Now to find a good proven/tested, 4 horse for the right price..


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## maddog (Apr 5, 2015)

I won't be portaging at all in the places I fish. If I do need to, I would throw in my canoe cart, easily slides under the boat and I have used it many times to haul the canoe with battery, trolling motor and all fishing gear several hundred yards and it works well. The big draw for me with the 4hp 2 stroke is the weedless lower unit. It sounds like that is a great setup for getting through some nasty spots that a regular outboard would have troubles with. I do have the oar locks on this canoe that I can use if the going is really bad, or jump out and pull if it is too shallow. I have been many places where a motor just won't get you anywhere due to the weeds. Have to paddle/row or just pop the motor up every 10 feet to get the weeds off so you can start moving forward again. Really good fishing spots though, just a pain to get back in those spots. I don't think there would be much difference between 3hp and 4hp so putting a 4hp on a canoe where the sticker says "3hp max" doesn't bother me much. The s15 model that is about 18" longer is rated for 5hp and it is built exactly the same with the same materials and same transom and weighs only 10lbs. more so the biggest thing to watch for on these boats is weight hanging off the transom. I likely won't be opening it up or trying to get the canoe to plane, just want a gas motor that will get me where I want to go and back safely.


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## WaterWaif (Apr 5, 2015)

Reads like you got it figured out.
Rear end on the canoe won't likely be passin the front end with the four. :LOL2: 
Sounds good on the weedless part!
Good fishin to ya.


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## josh870 (Apr 7, 2015)

not sure if this will be helpful, but i borrowed a newish 3hp yamaha for my 12ft jon boat, and it was just awful. the speed in calm clear water was ok, but any wind or weeds and it barely moved. not to mention the tiny gas tank and horrible shaking. i bought a 1967 johnson 6hp and love it, much quieter than you would think for a 2 stroke, and its a 2 cylinder so it doesnt shake you to death. the canoe probably cant handle a 6hp 50lb motor, so i would go with a 2 cylinder 4hp johnson. they are so easy to maintain too. anyway if you have to deal with currents, wind, or weeds, get the most powerful 2 stroke you can find. hope that helps


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## Boat2fast (Apr 9, 2015)

I agree with the 2 cylinder recommendation. The 2cylinder 3hp Johnson/Evinrudes were popular fishing engines for decades for very good reason. They are quiet and smooth like no other. They idle down to nothing if tuned right. The 4 deluxe ads the FNR and remote tank but does cost some weight, as you already noted. STILL better than a 1cylinder/4stroke anything else.


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## turbotodd (Apr 11, 2015)

also don't forget to remember that the old motors, 2 or 4 stroke both, tend to need repairs from time to time. Spark plugs, lower unit, potentially powerhead repairs.....that stuff is a lot less likely with a new motor; and even then your warranty would cover you if it was a defect. I'm pretty sure there's no warranty on a 1970's outboard. 2 stroke tends to want a little more fiddling with it, which it time not spent on the water. This is not always the case but I have found it to be accurate in my own observation with my own motors. I have both and still prefer the 4 stroke even with the 4 stroke's disadvantage.


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## maddog (Sep 28, 2017)

Picked up a 4hp Johnson wedless for $100 and got it running back in 2015. Didn't like the always in gear situation and it started hard after warming up so I sold it a few weeks ago. Just picked up a4hp deluxe, waiting on the tiller extender to arrive and will then try the new setup out and report back. Also have a river runner prop guard I plan to install on this outboard.


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## Sinkingfast (Sep 28, 2017)

I bought new in 2006 a yamaha f2.5 for my 18ft canoe with an outrigger on the left side. I can park the canoe at my dock in the water loaded and it won't tip over. I can stand in it no problem. And climb back in after swimming.

About the motor. Shipped with prop with way too much pitch. Shipped way too lean on fuel. With correct prop, about 6000 rpm, and jetted for good running, the 2.5 four stroke pushes the canoe at hull speed with good acceleration. About 12-15mph with wife and myself. I use 10-30 synthetic in it since new. It has 40 hours per month, 6 months per year for the last 10 years. I also drilled out the air adjustment plug and did an air box mod.

It has been a great motor, never an issue after proper jetting. Even has same spark plug. That said...I am looking for a lightwin as the vibratory effects on the wifes bottom from the 2.5 was fun in the beginning but that was 10 years ago. It vibrates alot...

The motor is mounted on the side..it is not a square back. You might be able to use the extra hp with the square back but on my pointy back boat anything past hull speed is not practical. 

In summery..great motor but vibrates a lot. Could use a balancer and a couple of extra cc's to pay for it.


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