# need to start wiring project



## txneal (Apr 14, 2012)

I've been hanging around this site for a few years, but I think this may be my first time in the electrical forum. I'm not very knowledgeable on wiring, so I think I could use some help in determining where to start. 

My boat is a 1972 14ft Starcraft Seafarer running on a tiller controlled 25hp Evinrude. The boat still has the original configuration of three bench seats. So far, my electrical needs have been for bow/stern lights, a Q-beam and a couple of crappie lights. I've made do by using d-cell operated, clamp-on style bow/stern lights and run my Q-beam and crappie lights directly off of a deep cell battery.

I've been planning to add a few gadgets to the boat that will require wiring and now, while I'm waiting for my motor to get out of the shop, I'd like to get started on the wiring project. I would like to mount some permanent bow/stern lights, I plan to purchase a trolling motor, I need to run a fish finder, and I would like to be able to run my crappie lights, Q-beam, perhaps some sort of driving lights, and I would like to be able to run lights for flounder gigging occasionally. 

My thoughts are that I would run the trolling motor off one battery and run the fish finder and all the lights off of a second battery.

Where do I start? I've searched some threads here and seen mention of bus bars and fuse boxes, but I'm not too familiar with the set-up of these. I'm assuming I'll need to run some sort of conduit along the gunwale to get my wiring to where it needs to be. Need some ideas on what's best for that.

I suppose the bow/stern lights, driving lights and fish finder are things that I would want permanently installed since they would be used regularly. However, the Q-beam, crappie lights and flounder gigging lights are things that would be used only occasionally, so it would be nice to be able to hook them up as needed. 

I'm all for doing it right the first time and using quality products, so I intend to spend the money to buy whatever is needed to do a proper job of this. I'm just not sure exactly what it is that I need to get, so I'm hoping some of you guys can point me in the right direction and tell me what I need. There is nowhere nearby where I can purchase anything, so I'll be ordering everything online. Any links to good places to order this stuff would be great!


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## txneal (Apr 17, 2012)

I posted this a few days ago and haven't had any replies, so perhaps I need to be a bit more specific about what I need to know. 

As I stated in my original post, I'm not very familiar with 12V wiring, so let me try to describe what it is I _think_ I need to do and then perhaps someone could correct any misunderstanding I have. 

I think I can get a fuse box with a negative bus attached to it. I will run a ground wire from the neg bus to the neg terminal of the battery. On the pos side, I will run a connection to the fuse box with a on/off switch in between. From the neg bus, I will run a ground wire to each device. From the fuse box, I will run a wire from each connector to a on/off switch and from there on to the device. Sounds too simple to me, so I think I must be missing something.

As for a conduit to run my wires through....what is a good material to use and what are some options for attaching it to the boat? I've seen mention of using pvc line to run the wires through. Would I use the type of pvc pipe like you use for a water line or should I use the flexible black stuff? Or is there something better to use as a conduit? And how about where the wires exit my conduit to go to the device....how should the wires be protected at this point? a wire loom, shrink tubing, something else??? 

Thanks for any advice you guys can give me!


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## RivRunR (Apr 17, 2012)

Sounds like you are on the right track with a 2 battery setup; one for your TM and one for everything else.

For the TM circuit: use 6AWG (not SAE) for both positive and negative leads. Install a (50A or 60A) circuit breaker within 7" of your TM battery for the positive side, neg can run directly to the battery. You'll have to decide how to make the TM connections (plug, posts, etc.) depending on your layout, whether you will remove the TM, etc.

You pretty much had the accessory circuit nailed. First, determine the correct gauge of AWG wire for each device based on it's amp draw and it's total length of run (+ and -). There are lots of charts online to show you what AWG to use. Next decide which devices you want to be switched versus un-switched... any device that has it's own on/off, like a fish finder, doesn't need to run thru a switch. 

Once you've got that sorted out, then the first leg is from your battery pos to a breaker then to a fuse panel. I overkill the gauge on the battery-to-breaker and breaker-to-fuse panel leads (8 or 6 AWG). Breaker size should be sufficient to handle the total amp draw running thru the fuse panel. Then, like you posted, the positive lead from each device will either connect directly to the fuse panel (unswitched), or thru a switch and then to the fuse panel (switched). You'll have to decide whether you want a switch panel, or want to install individual switches. For the negative side I would get a separate negative buss bar; using a fuse panel with a neg buss can get over crowded, and makes it difficult to track down problems when all grounds are connected at a single terminal.

I'm not sure how you are setting up your crappie and flounder lights, but maybe you could just permanently mount them and run them thru a switch? For your Q-beam you could install a 12V receptacle, assuming it has a lighter-type plug.

The type of conduit really depends on your boat layout, and what you are able to run, but people use pvc, loom, etc. etc.

As far as what to buy...here's the fuse blocks and buss bar that I used. Got mine from Amazon, but you can shop them. And I get all my wire, connectors, terminals, etc from Tinned Marine Wire. Their wire is AWG, and the connectors and terminals are a good quality marine heatshrink + adhesive type (and I heat shrink over top of that).

Hope this helps!


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## txneal (Apr 17, 2012)

Thanks a lot, RivRunR! That was a big help!

Now I'm going to start searching for components and making up my order list. My initial thoughts were that I would install individual switches for each switched device, but I hadn't even considered that switch panels were available. I think that sounds better....any recommendations for a really good switch panel to order? Is there, by any chance, such a thing as a combination fuse box/switch panel?

Since I'll only have an opportunity for flounder gigging for about 2 weeks out of the year, I think I want those lights to be removable and will probably just wire them up as needed. However, the lighter type plug for the Q-beam is something that I would want to have permanently installed. I'm trying to visualized how I would install this....any ideas? I suppose I would want it mounted on the transom since I'm sitting back there with the tiller. I would want it out of the way and not protruding too much...probably with a snap-down cover of some sort so that moisture isn't getting into it. Any good leads on where to find something like this?

I'll start searching some sites and see if I can locate everything I need. Any more leads to good sources are certainly appreciated.


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## HOUSE (Apr 17, 2012)

I did most of my electrical wiring shopping on Amazon.com and Ebay. They sell most of the name brand parts on Amazon that most people are using in their mods. Other stores that come up a lot on these forums: GenuineDealz.com, Westmarine.com and BlueSeas.com

It might help to post a diagram of your electrical plans on here so we can see what you are trying to do. Here's a blank one I made that you can edit with Paint on your computer. Might help, might not  Good luck







If you want to see how I did mine, here's my final schematics which I finished last weekend:


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## RivRunR (Apr 17, 2012)

txneal said:


> My initial thoughts were that I would install individual switches for each switched device, but I hadn't even considered that switch panels were available. I think that sounds better....any recommendations for a really good switch panel to order? Is there, by any chance, such a thing as a combination fuse box/switch panel?


There are switch panels out there, but I don't have one so I can't really recommend any. And there are fused switch panels too, but if you get one of those you'll probably end up with an additional separate fuse panel just for your non-switched devices too, like for your finder and your QBeam.



txneal said:


> ...the lighter type plug for the Q-beam is something that I would want to have permanently installed. I'm trying to visualized how I would install this....any ideas? I suppose I would want it mounted on the transom since I'm sitting back there with the tiller. I would want it out of the way and not protruding too much...probably with a snap-down cover of some sort so that moisture isn't getting into it. Any good leads on where to find something like this?


You can mount the receptacle on any flat surface where you have the space behind it. Here's a 12V socket, but there are others out there too.


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## txneal (Apr 17, 2012)

I think I'm getting it figured out as it is all coming together in my mind now. House: I tried to use paint to create an image of my plans, but I really suck at using paint and made a mess of my drawing! However, my attempt at it did help me to visualize where everything will go. I think I'll try to just draw it out on paper and then maybe I can scan it and post a copy here. 

Having never wired a boat before, it seemed like a daunting task at first, but I'm getting way more comfortable with the idea now. 

I'm thinking that I can mount the neg. bus, fuse box, switch panel, and 12V socket on the transom, directly above the battery and then just run a flexible pvc tubing the length of the boat from there. 

I'm thinking I could use something like these two items to run my wires and connect the conduit to the boat.

https://shop.genuinedealz.com/Marine%20Electrical%20Supply/Cable%20Ties%20-%20Mounts/Cable%20Tie%20Mounts/

https://shop.genuinedealz.com/Marine%20Electrical%20Supply/PVC%20Tubing%20Conduit/


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## RivRunR (Apr 17, 2012)

Might also want to check out the various plastic clamps at McMaster-Carr...might give you a more solid hold to connect your conduit to the boat than the wire-tie type.


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## txneal (Apr 17, 2012)

good idea, RivRunR. I also just had another thought. What if I ran my conduit along the side of the boat, underneath the seat hangers, and then just attach it to the seat hangers? I wouldn't have to drill any holes in the boat that way. Not sure how well it would work, but I suppose its worth consideration. I don't have a pic of my boat at the moment, but I found a pic here on this site of the same boat and will attempt to put a link to the photo here.

https://www.tinboats.net/forum/download/file.php?id=21046

These seat hangers could serve as attachment points for the conduit by running it under them, right where they contact the side of the boat. Any thoughts on how well that would work or why it might not be a good idea?


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## RivRunR (Apr 17, 2012)

I haven't had to run conduit myself (altho' it's in the works), so I can't answer from personal experience....but, my guess is that if you are using a flexible/loom type conduit you're going to get a lot of sag between attachment points. Maybe something stiffer like pvc pipe would give you less sag, especially if you used short sections of pipe with connectors at each of your seat hangers? Maybe you could heat the pvc enough to put a slight bow in it to match up closer to your hull?

I'm shooting in the dark here, hopefully someone will jump in...


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## txneal (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes, I was kinda considering a small diameter pvc pipe. I have a long section of it out in the shop and I was just looking at it and it seems to have plenty of flex to follow the contour of the boat.


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## txneal (Apr 17, 2012)

I feel like I've got a pretty good handle on what I need to order for this wiring job, but I'm still a little uncertain about the circuit breaker that will go between the battery and fuse box. I would appreciate if someone could explain exactly what it is I need for this and perhaps post a link to where I can purchase it.


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## PSG-1 (Apr 17, 2012)

txneal said:


> I've been hanging around this site for a few years, but I think this may be my first time in the electrical forum. I'm not very knowledgeable on wiring, so I think I could use some help in determining where to start.
> 
> My boat is a 1972 14ft Starcraft Seafarer running on a tiller controlled 25hp Evinrude. The boat still has the original configuration of three bench seats. So far, my electrical needs have been for bow/stern lights, a Q-beam and a couple of crappie lights. I've made do by using d-cell operated, clamp-on style bow/stern lights and run my Q-beam and crappie lights directly off of a deep cell battery.
> 
> ...




I used 1/2" ID flexible liquid tight non-metallic electrical conduit for my jetboat. Comes in 25 foot rolls. You could also use gray electrical PVC, or even white PVC.....but my concern would be trying to pull wires through elbows. If you try to pull the wires through everything and then assemble the elbows, the PVC glue might eat the wiring insulation. So, the flexible conduit is the best bet. To pull wires, use a fish tape, or better yet, try a length of 1/4" steel cable, as it has much greater flexibility than a fish tape, and will go through all kinds of bends and radiuses with less difficulty.








> I suppose the bow/stern lights, driving lights and fish finder are things that I would want permanently installed since they would be used regularly. However, the Q-beam, crappie lights and flounder gigging lights are things that would be used only occasionally, so it would be nice to be able to hook them up as needed.



For your Q-beam, you should install a cigarette lighter plug on your console. If you don;t have a console, they also make cigarette lighter adapters that have 2 short leads that hook to your battery terminals.

When I run my gigging lights on my Triton, I use the factory supplied trolling motor plug. I have the male end of a TM plug on my gigging lights.
But, since my jetboat doesn't have a trolling motor plug, when I go gigging with that boat, I have a trolling motor plug adapter that hooks to my battery terminals. The TM plug works pretty good, IMO. The same could be done with crappie lights, too. 




> I'm all for doing it right the first time and using quality products, so I intend to spend the money to buy whatever is needed to do a proper job of this. I'm just not sure exactly what it is that I need to get, so I'm hoping some of you guys can point me in the right direction and tell me what I need. There is nowhere nearby where I can purchase anything, so I'll be ordering everything online. Any links to good places to order this stuff would be great!




make sure to use marine grade wire, not automotive grade. As it is exposed to moisture, marine wire is designed for these conditions. Automotive or house wiring is not.

Make sure to use an inline fuse on everything running from the battery. I like the weather tight models that take the blade fuses. These have a neoprene seal and a plastic cap, with a retainer snap. 

Anywhere you splice wires, or any terminal in a marine wiring harness, for that matter, you should use self adhesive lined heat shrink terminals. After heat shrinking, you should also wrap the connection with 3M splicing tape for maximum watertight integrity.

If you want your harness to have a weatherproof multi-pin quick connect design, like what manufacturers use, check out a website called 'diyautotune.com' and look for the 'weather pack kits' These are the delphi multi-pin connector kits, so you can make your own professional wiring harness.

Hope this info helps.


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## txneal (Apr 18, 2012)

Thanks PSG-1. That was a lot of useful info! 

Back to my question about the circuit breaker between the battery and the fuse block. Is this what I need?
https://shop.genuinedealz.com/Marine%20Electrical%20Supply/Breakers%20and%20Panels/Push%20to%20Reset%20Thermal/
or am I looking for something else? Is there something that works better or is easier to mount in the boat? Thanks to the help I got here, I think I have a pretty solid understand of what I need to do. Just still a bit uncertain about the circuit breaker


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## PSG-1 (Apr 18, 2012)

I don't know much about circuit breakers (at least not the type used in a 12 volt system) Sorry I don't have the answer for that one.


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## txneal (Apr 18, 2012)

or perhaps this?
https://www.iboats.com/Blue-Sea-187-Series-Thermal-Surface-Mount-DC-Circuit-Breakers/dm/cart_id.164660279--session_id.327841669--view_id.796960


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## RivRunR (Apr 18, 2012)

Like *THIS*
I can never find the manual reset locally, but I live back in the hills. :lol:


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## txneal (Apr 19, 2012)

RivRunr: does that type of circuit breaker have the ability to be turned on and off in case I want to kill the power to the whole system? I guess I don't understand the reset button....is that the same as an on/off switch?


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## RivRunR (Apr 19, 2012)

No, it just trips on overload...just like in your house, and the reset button enables it again after tripping. I like the manual reset because if I've got an overload problem I want to find it, not just have the breaker auto-reset. 
If you wan to kill the power you'll have to get something like this battery switch, but why do you want to kill the power?


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## txneal (Apr 19, 2012)

> but why do you want to kill the power?



I suppose you're right....I just thought it might be a good idea to be able to kill the power, but I guess I don't really need that option. I have a list going here of everything I'm going to order, so just trying to make sure I make good decisions on my choices. 

I talked to a guy who owns a local auto repair shop yesterday and he has also wired numerous boats, so I picked his brain a little about how he would suggest doing this. He seemed to think that a circuit breaker between the battery and fuse block was unnecessary and asked me why I thought I needed it there. Being unfamiliar with electrical wiring, I couldn't really explain why it was needed. He said that it might not be a bad idea, but wasn't necessary. Any thoughts on that?


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## RivRunR (Apr 19, 2012)

A breaker between the battery and the fuse block is just a good safety practice to protect that wire, because nothing else does. Is it likely that you'll ever have a fire because of that lead? No, but for less than $10 for breaker/wire/connectors, why not?


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## txneal (Apr 19, 2012)

Another question (seems like I'll never run out of questions on this thread!)

What do I need in order to make a connection to this 12V socket?
https://www.amazon.com/Marinco-12V-Receptacle-Blk-Plas/dp/B000NI1BI4/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1334677507&sr=1-1-catcorr

It seems that it has a couple of prongs sticking out the back of it. I'm assuming there is a specific connector required to wire this into the system, but I'm not sure what to order.


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## RivRunR (Apr 19, 2012)

They look like standard 0.25" tabs, so you'd need 0.25 female connectors. Something like these disconnects, depending on what gauge you need.


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## txneal (Apr 20, 2012)

Thanks for all the help, but I'm still not out of questions.

Now I'm wondering about choosing fuse sizes and circuit breaker size. I've tried to search and find this info, but I'm still not sure I understand. As for fuse size for each device, do I go by the amount of amps used by the device or the size of wire running to the device? Is there a chart available somewhere that will show me what to use?

And for the circuit breaker...I assume I would add up the max amount of amps to all devices combined and then choose a circuit breaker that is close, but above that amount??? Say for instance, all devices combined are 21 amps....would I go with a 30amp breaker? How about if all devices combined are 15 amps, but there is a chance that I may add another 5amp device in the future. Would it be a bad idea to use a 30amp breaker in this situation and should I just wait and add a larger breaker when I add the additional device?


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## PSG-1 (Apr 20, 2012)

txneal said:


> Thanks for all the help, but I'm still not out of questions.
> 
> Now I'm wondering about choosing fuse sizes and circuit breaker size. I've tried to search and find this info, but I'm still not sure I understand. As for fuse size for each device, do I go by the amount of amps used by the device or the size of wire running to the device? Is there a chart available somewhere that will show me what to use?



Yes, you go by the amp rating on the device you are running. And when you are wiring, you install a wire that's rated for that amp load. Then, install an inline fuse with that amp rating, close to the battery or terminal bus bar. This will protect the device and the wire. There's all kinds of charts and other reference info on the net, just do some searches under marine wiring, or DIY boat wiring.




> And for the circuit breaker...I assume I would add up the max amount of amps to all devices combined and then choose a circuit breaker that is close, but above that amount??? Say for instance, all devices combined are 21 amps....would I go with a 30amp breaker? How about if all devices combined are 15 amps, but there is a chance that I may add another 5amp device in the future. Would it be a bad idea to use a 30amp breaker in this situation and should I just wait and add a larger breaker when I add the additional device?



You should only install a breaker if the wire is big enough to handle the load the breaker is rated for. So, if you're running, let's say an AWG 8, from the battery to your terminal bus bar, then, you should only install a breaker that matches the amp load for that wire. Then, each wire that branches off from that terminal block would have its own fuse, according to wire size and the amp draw of each device.


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## txneal (Apr 23, 2012)

I'm planning to place my order this Thursday for everything I need to wire the boat, so I'm still trying to finalize my list of items. A switch panel is still something that is holding me up on a final decision. I posted a question about it earlier in this thread, but I'm still not sure what I should order. It seems that the switch panels I've been looking at already are fused, so I'm wondering about the need to run through a fuse block prior to the switch if this is the case. I understand that some devices won't need a switch and would need a fuse anyway. 

I could use some suggestions on how to set up switches. Are switch panels available that do not have fuses in them? As with most aluminum boats, I'm sure, I don't have a whole lot of extra space for all of these wiring contraptions, so I'd like to keep this as compact as possible. I don't think I'll ever need to have more than 4 devices on switches. Is there something I'm overlooking? A switch panel seems nice, but is there an easier or better way to do things? 

Right now, I'm thinking that I really only need switches for the bow/stern lights and the future installation of some sort of driving light. My fish finder will not need a switch, the crappie/flounder light has its own switch and the 12V socket for the Q-beam will not need a switch. So actually, I only need 2 switches at the moment, with the possibility of adding a third switched device in the future. Any good ideas for making this very simple? I know I need to be able to turn off the bow light when at anchor, so that's why I'm thinking I need separate switches to run the bow lights and stern light.....unless there is a way to set up a switch with multiple positions so that I can run them both off of the same switch. In that case, I would only need one switch at the present time.


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## RivRunR (Apr 23, 2012)

I really can't recommend a switch panel because I don't have one, hopefully someone else will chime in on options for that. One thing to watch for is that the lighted switches on some panels may be on whenever power is going to the panel, which may be always. There are ways around that, but it depends on how the switch's light circuit is wired.

If you run a fused switch panel you don't need to run those devices thru a fuse block before the fuse at the switch. And you are right, you'll still need some sort of fuse for your devices that don't run thru the fused switch panel.

If you only need 2 or 3 switches it might be easier to just fabricate your own (un-fused) panel or box and install individual switches in that. Basically all you need is some sort of small box with a flat panel you can drill holes in to mount the switches. It's better to have some sort of waterproof enclosure for them, if possible. Some guys on here have made up panels like that, but I can't recall any specific posts. _Edit: Here's some boxes that might work from Radio Shack_

You don't need 2 separate switches for your nav/anchor light, what you'll want to get is an on/off/on DPDT (double-pole-double-throw) switch for that like this:



DPDT's are easier to wire than they look. For your other switches you probably need just an on/off SPST (single-pole-single-throw) type. There's lots of places to order marine switches. The toggle-style is usually easier to install than a rocker-switch because you just have to drill a hole, instead of cutting out a rectangle.


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