# New 2017 25hp 4 stroke efi yamaha



## scoobeb

Anyone see the new 2017 25hp efi 4 stroke yamaha? Man what a sweet outboard. Looks very promising. It is a 432 cc engine at 126lbs which makes it the lightest engine in it's class. Yamaha finally smarten up by having a manual rope start on the electric models like they should all have in the portable class. Once I get enough money I may get a new 25hp suzuki or yamaha, now it will make my life harder now trying to pick from these 2 awesome outboards. I have the 20hp efi suzuki now and love it and may keep that forever to. The Yamaha looks like a really sweet and powerful engine. Yamaha claims it's faster and more powerful than it's 25hp 2 stroke yamaha. If so that is an extremely impressive outboard if you ask me. So anyone see it yet,watch it run on YouTube, looks like a real winner like the suzuki.


----------



## scoobeb

I forgot to add it's very reasonably priced for a yamaha. The manual start is around $3500 great price for a 25hp efi engine.


----------



## scoobeb

NO ONE HUH?


----------



## turbotodd

scoobeb said:


> Yamaha claims it's faster and more powerful than it's 25hp 2 stroke yamaha. If so that is an extremely impressive outboard if you ask me. So anyone see it yet,watch it run on YouTube, looks like a real winner like the suzuki.



It should be, since it's ~60 lbs lighter than the old 4 stroke, with ran identical to the 2 stroke twin carb 25. What's the deal? Haven't seen a single new suzuki on the water out here in....gosh...at least 10 years? I mean not one. Either I'm blind, they're camouflaged really well, or they're just not out there like they should be. Dunno.

BUT...it's only 432cc. There will be a loss of torque with the lack of displacement; unless they've done something else to compensate. It's also two cylinder, and it better be a little smoother than the old 25. Now, I personally think one reason it's a smaller engine is that they reduced the displacement, which reduced the need for the slug (counterbalancer) in the crankcase of the motor, which saves quite a bit of weight. There's probably 10-15 lbs there by itself! I expected a small displacement VCT 3 cylinder with DI but while it's still not ruled out, I doubt it'll see any production.


Also, what Ive seen, is strictly Canadian or European. Nothing for the USA yet that I've seen.


----------



## scoobeb

All I know is I just sold my 25hp 2 stroke merc and bought me another 20hp suzuki, that is how much I like that engine. I know speed wise it will not run close to the same but the gas savings and peace and quiet is priceless. I had the 25hp suzuki and I sold it,I just don't need to go a million miles an hr anymore, lol. Maybe in time when my daughter grows up then I will get a bit more speed. The 20hp pushes my 1648 boat with over 1000lbs of weight at 25+ mph,not to shabby for the little engine that could,lol. I also use an 11 pitch prop, not the standard 10 pitch. It over revs with the 10. 


I think the Yamaha will be a sweet engine and perform on par with all the other 25's but time will tell and it's good to wait a couple yrs to buy one just in case they need to work out any kinks. Should be a good one.


----------



## scoobeb

Also I saw them for sale already online in the USA for $3505 I believe it was. Very reasonable.


----------



## Ebug

I hope this starts a trend with the other manufactures. The current line up of 2 and 4 stroke engines are just pigs when it comes to weight.

I will also be glad when some of the motorcycle performance levels are achievable in these lighter weight marine engines. Would love to see 30+hp at this same weight.

Rob


----------



## scoobeb

Almost every potable outboard has dropped weight significantly from yrs ago. My 20hp 4 stroke suzuki weighs in at a mere 97lbs. The suzuki 25hp 4 stroke is only 136lbs,the new efi 25hp 4 stroke yamaha is only 126lbs so things are starting to really take form across the board . The 25hp 4 strokes are coming in at or near low double digit weight comparisons for their 2 stroke counterparts. 

25hp 4 stroke efi suzuki 136lbs/25hp 2 stroke suzuki is around 115-120lbs so it's within 15 to 20lbs compared to yrs ago. 

25hp 4 stroke efi yamaha is at 126lbs/25hp 2 stroke yamaha is at 105 lbs, that is 21lbs difference so it's getting real close.

Merc/tohatsu 25hp needs a weight loss program at around 160lbs

Even the 25hp etec is 146lbs as a DI 2 stroke. So I think the 4 strokes are much lighter than past 4 strokes and as powerful as their 2 stroke brothers now. It's a good thing when two 4 stroke 25's are lighter than a DI etec.

Things are on the rise,technology is getting so much better. In time I believe everything will be either DI or EFI. It's coming soon.


----------



## DaisyCutter

scoobeb said:


> NO ONE HUH?




I saw it. I even posted about on this forum, the day before you did. ;-p

The new 25 Yam is it's own block, not a detuned 30 like Merc/Tohatsu/Evinrude/Honda.

Since my hull is capped at 25 HP, I don't want to float around 30 HP of weight on the transom.



I'm trying to sort out whether the 20" shaft will be available with power tilt & trim.


Bucu excited.


----------



## turbotodd

Ebug said:


> I hope this starts a trend with the other manufactures. The current line up of 2 and 4 stroke engines are just pigs when it comes to weight.
> 
> I will also be glad when some of the motorcycle performance levels are achievable in these lighter weight marine engines. Would love to see 30+hp at this same weight.
> 
> Rob




That technology is already there. The problem with that is that a motorcycle engine usually runs hot, and a lot of RPM, but rarely full RPM and FULL LOAD for hours on end. And that's why most outboards are limited to around 6000 RPM. That and keeping a gearcase alive at 15,000 RPM would be another challenge-and the noise that goes along with the RPM. I know for certain that some guys have pumped up some of the VF200's to make around 400 hp at around 8500 RPM, and they sound wicked. But they go through them often as they don't last forever at those RPM levels. They are race motors. The 2 guys I know that run them have plenty of spare blocks. And a few welded ones too.

A manufacturer could easily sell them but they would have to sell them as "no warranty" because you know somebody's gonna have to pull it off the trailer, and run it full tilt for an hour while racing their buddy's 2 stroke, blow it up, and then claim warranty. Another reason most are kept under or around 6000 RPM.

Then the exhaust problem. Most of them if you look at the exhaust, it comes out of the cylinder, then has to make a hard 180 degre turn out of the head, then another 90 degree turn go be directed down the leg and out the prop. Lots of restriction and 4 strokes don't like restriction in the exhaust. And it's all water cooled.

They can make them fast, they can make them reliable, they can make them cheap. But not all 3 together so you can only pick 2.


----------



## fishwater

DaisyCutter said:


> I'm trying to sort out whether the 20" shaft will be available with power tilt & trim.



I just ordered one with a 20" shaft with tilt/trim on Monday from a local dealer. I guess you can get the remote model with tiller (f25LC), but that doesn't come with the manual start. I ordered the F25LWTC @ 143lbs.


----------



## DaisyCutter

^^ You snuck in while I was typing, lol. Excellent!

FWIW, I got the confirmation, you CAN get a new Yamaha 25 HP long shaft electric start power tilt AND trim tiller.

Basically, it's the F25LWTC remote steer model with optional tiller.

I ordered an Alumacraft V-16 through Cabelas. It's a light tin boat with a floor and 20" transom. The tentative engine I chose was the Merc 4-stroke 20 HP ELHPT. It has electric start and power tilt... Which means you can't trim that engine on plane. For the little Merc, the price is $3800.

For the new Yamaha F25LWTC, it'll be $4900-5200. Cabelas man doesn't know the exact price yet.

But for the additional ~$1200, I get fuel injection, variable push button troll, legit power trim (on plane), 16 Amp alternator (vs 12 Amp), and 5 more horsepower. 

I also don't suffer the 50 lb weight penalty of going to a bloated Merc/Tohatsu/Suzuki 25 HP (that carries 30 HP weight).

The Yam 25 weighs within 10 lbs of the Merc 20, for a comparably equipped model.

So I think I'm going to try the new Yamaha 25.


----------



## scoobeb

Daisycutter,when you get the 25hp yamaha will you update us or me on what type of power she gets,wot speed, all the good stuff. I have no doubt that this 25hp yamaha will be as advertised, yamaha makes excellent products,especially outboard engines. They gave this engine a monster weight loss so I'm curious to see how this engine performs at 432 ccs compared to all the other 25hp 4 strokes who are near 500 ccs or more. The second closest engine as far as ccs is the suzuki with 489,but it's a 3 cylinder powerhouse from all I've seen and read so far. If I go 25hp as of now it would be the suzuki hands down. There is no denying how sweet the suzuki is and how smooth it runs due to the extra cylinder. I'm sure the Yamaha will be just as good but imo having that 3rd cylinder will give the suzuki more power. I guess we will see. Looking forward to your experience with it.


----------



## Ebug

*turbotodd* post has some great points concerning how outboards are used versus the motorcycle engines I had mentioned. That got me thinking about what are the current performance levels of outboards that have to run WOT almost all of the time.

I decided to collect some published figures from the internet and do some math. I limited it to Yamaha because that is the brand we are talking about.

You will see that the F25 that we have been discussing is highlighted in grey on the screen capture of my spreadsheet. All of the cells in the last 3 columns that are colored exceed the F25 in that category.

The F200 In-Line 4-stroke appears to be the overall winner to me.

Just for fun I used the percentages to calculate the perfect *TINBOATS.com* outboard based on the displacement of the current F25 using the ratios achieved with the F200. You will see it at the bottom of the picture.

Math is fun.

Rob


Edit: I updated the spreadsheet to show what HP level could be achieved if the current 126lb weight and 432cc stayed constant.


----------



## turbotodd

If any of you guys get the chance, could I ask you to put a real world review of your new F25 up? I've run the original ('97-'06) F25, and the current ('08-'16) but I have not run the '17 F25. About 3 years ago I saved up some money because Yamaha had sold us that a new F25 is on it's way, and I got some inside info...I was sold. But it's not what it was "supposed" to be, not at all. It's better in some ways, although I'll miss not having the 3rd cylinder. I have a 2000 model (F25ESHY) and it's perfect other than cosmetics, and I'm mostly happy with it-but if the '17 is worth spending some money on, I might try to sell mine and pick up a C model.

What I can tell you is my experience, since I've run 4 different 25's on my 548 war eagle. The original F25 which is what I have does fine. On plane in 3.5 seconds, top speed 29-ish mph at 6180 rpm. I was repairing a friend's '12 model and bolted it to my boat and put the tach on it. It runs 29.5-ish at 6200, on the limiter at times, on plane in 3 seconds flat-has a little more low end power and runs smoother, though the early one is a little quieter. I attribute the smoother operation and more low end to the different cylinder head and intake manifold. Then I had a 25hp 2 stroke twin carb yamaha which was smooth, but wasn't a great idle, and didn't have the response and torque that the original 4 stroke did. AND...I've also got a 3 cylinder 25 thats nearly new-has about 2 hrs run time on it, but it's in a league of it's own. Bone stock. It runs right at 30mph on my boat, so it's legendary power isn't that legendary unless you uncork it, which I'm not doing. 

I want to try a new one but I don't want to give up $4000+ just to try it. Says it's faster than the current model according to the website. Even with less displacement.


----------



## scoobeb

I would go with the 25hp suzuki over the Yamaha after looking at them both closely.


----------



## scoobeb

Imo,the suzuki is a much better engine,better warranty, 3 cylinder vs 2,only 10 lbs heavier at 136 so no big deal.


----------



## DaisyCutter

I ordered the new Yamaha F25 last week. It won't be available until mid March. I will definitely post a review once I get it.

On the spec sheet, the Suzuki initially seems like it may be a stronger performer, with more displacement and an extra cylinder over the Yamaha. The Suzuki is cheaper too. I really contemplated the Suzuki. But consider both Yamaha and Suzuki build 50hp, 449cc, single cylinder high performance motocross bikes.. I can attest that my 2008 Yamaha 450 motocross bike has never been rebuilt, and still runs strong. So Yamaha should have no problem getting 25 reliable horsepower out of a ~430cc twin. 


The biggest reason I chose the Yamaha over the Suzuki, is that Suzuki is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy every other year, and there are a lot of service and warranty horror stories. The Suzuki website is really crude. Half of their motorcycles are only offered every other year it seems. Suzuki cars have evaporated from Planet Earth. I have low faith in the Suzuki warranty, especially compared to Yamaha.


----------



## scoobeb

I understand, but the good part is the chances of ever needing warranty work is so slim I don't worry about that. I know these engines whether they are yamaha, suzuki, mercury,tohatsu or any other major brand,will run for many,many yrs with no issues. Things do happen from time to time but it's so rare the way these engines are built today. Good luck with the Yamaha and please let us know how it performs.


----------



## bcbouy

so you get 1 less cylinder and no power tilt/trim on short shaft.all for the same price as my power tilt/electric/manual start ss 25 tohatsu,all for a small weight saving?i think i still made the right choice.


----------



## Duramacr

Bcbouy, what boat do you have and how fast
are you running with your tohatsu ? I'm really
Interested in this motor. Might have a buyer for 
my Mercury 20 and need to upgrade


----------



## bcbouy

14.5 g3 guide v. i'm not sure what my top speed is. the prop i have at the moment is for trolling,not high end speed. i think it's a 12.all i know is it's smooth,and the tilt is the best money i've spent on it yet.it's what knocked the etec out of the mix for me.i was getting around 25/28 with 2 people,but i'm almost 800 lbs,fully loaded,if not more.if i put on the prop it came with i'd hit 30 with just me in it,no doubt about it.


----------



## Duramacr

Not bad , your boat weighs just 10lbs more then mine
And your engine is 40lbs more. I thought you would at
least be at 33mph with 2 people. I came back from the lake
yesterday and I'm running 28mph with 2 people and 30.5
with me alone . But I have a 2015 Merc 20hp. Where you 
in the ocean or something . I was under the impression that
extra 5hp would get me 4-5mph especially with that 3rd cylinder .
Buy hey thanks for heads up. I might just go straight to a 30hp
and finance it . Thanks again.


----------



## scoobeb

Duramacr said:


> Not bad , your boat weighs just 10lbs more then mine
> And your engine is 40lbs more. I thought you would at
> least be at 33mph with 2 people. I came back from the lake
> yesterday and I'm running 28mph with 2 people and 30.5
> with me alone . But I have a 2015 Merc 20hp. Where you
> in the ocean or something . I was under the impression that
> extra 5hp would get me 4-5mph especially with that 3rd cylinder .
> Buy hey thanks for heads up. I might just go straight to a 30hp
> and finance it . Thanks again.



If your getting those speeds which imo i have never heard of with a 20hp 4stroke on any aluminum boat you would be nuts to get rid of that engine.Now i have heard of a light rib boat with a 20hp 4stroke suzuki with a 12 pitch ss prop get 30.3 mph and that is crazy fast for a 20hp 4stroke.Your gain with a 25hp 4 stroke or 2 stroke will be so small it would be a waste of money.I do know you can mabe get 32 or 33 mph with a 25hp engine but at what cost.You gain 2 to 3 mph for alot of extra money,not worth it imo.Those 20hp merc/tohatsu's are as stellar an engine as you can get.


----------



## Duramacr

I don't think it's unheard of, I was getting 28 with the stock 10
aluminum prop . If you go to the Mercury outboard website they 
Have a heavier boat then mine with a blackmax aluminum prop
getting 27.5 with an 800+load as well. I upgraded to a stainless 
Steel 11 pitch solas and that's good for 2mph. Im 250lbs and my
Buddy is 180. Boat is 190 and motor is 125 , 40 lbs for gas and 
80lbs for all my other stuff like canopy, anchor , ice chest, fishing gear,
etc. That's still over 800lbs as well. I think it just depends on the boat.
I have a tach and have played with 2 different props and have
The engine raised a 1/4 inch of the transom and the cavitation plate sits
1/4 inch above the keel. . I'm waiting on a mini jacker that actually comes in today and
im gonna have it at 1/2 inch above the keel to see if I can get the extra rpm
To get to 31mph. I also sanded the whole bottom of my boat 3 months after
I got it . Lol. Had a buddy that swears by that .


----------



## scoobeb

Just giving you friendly advice on one thing,if you continue using the ss prop it can do more damage then good to your lower unit. Engines as small as ours were not designed to handle ss props. If you do research you will see that. The gain of 2 mph is not worth the risk imo of destroying your lower unit. SS props do very,very little for small outboards, they are made for higher stronger hp outboards. Just wanted to throw that out . Now I'm not saying your motor will break or anything but I know the gears in our smaller outboards from everything I have read are not designed to handle the extra force and weight a SS prop produces on the shaft . Most people ignore that and never have issues, I'm just saying it's possible. The less strain on your lower unit gears the better.


----------



## scoobeb

All I'm saying is be careful. I also entertained the idea of a ss prop and my guy at my local marina told me first it's not worth the extra money. Second you hit something since I fish shallow water my lower unit will break and he also mentioned the extra strain it puts on a small outboard like my 20hp so with the information I know and he gave me I went with a 11 pitch solas aluminum and I do good,1000 lbs + I hit near 26 mph and I haven't done solo yet,but I see how 28 and 31 could be done.


----------



## Duramacr

Yes , thanks for the info. I had heard that before 
as well, that's why I went with a 12 pitch solas
Amita 3 first . I actually weighed my aluminum
prop and my stainless steel and there was a 6oz
difference . When I unpackaged the ss prop and took
aluminum off I could feel a small difference so I
weighed them . I fish at big lakes . There are no canals 
or swamps around here so I'm not worried about 
hitting something . I was sold on the Blackman 11.5
pitch before I got the ss prop, but the guys on the
duckboat forum told me to get an ss prop and
a jackplate . These guys know there stuff when
it comes to speed . They have high performance 
Edge, Havoc, ambush, etc hulls with stock etec 25's
pushing upper 30's mph. They claim the duckboat hulls
are a 5-7mph gain over a Jon boat hull. The main reason 
Is because the motor is setback way off the boat. Anyway
The difference from an aluminum prop to an ss prop
was 40 bucks . And sorry about what I said about Suzuki , I
didnt realize there new 2017 25hp weighs 136lbs which is
almost the same as their 20hp.


----------



## scoobeb

Suzuki came out with their new 25hp in 2015 so it's 2yrs in production already and it's a dynamite motor. I had it for a short while and I should of kept it but like I said it's a big difference running in the open gulf with 15 mph winds howling up to thunderstorm force winds compared to my local lake. I can run wot all day in my lake compared to wot maybe half to less of the time in the Gulf when I had my 25hp 2 stroke merc. If I went wot in nasty wind and rough seas it was flat out scary because my boat was so fast it barely touched the water as is so if I hit a wave that would be it for me and my boat,lol. The 20hp suzuki is just perfect for wot because I get like I said 25 maybe 26 mph at wot with a full boat and it's manageable to run through rough water and wind . Plus I fish close to shore,I only go down the shoreline and not out in deeper water. Plenty of fish in a few feet or less of water here in central fl.


----------



## scoobeb

The suzuki 20hp is 97lbs and the 25hp is 136,very,big difference in weight.


----------



## bcbouy

for me personally, speed only becomes a factor when i'm full tilt back to shore while outrunning weather or need to # 2 really bad.i'd rather troll nice and slow out and in. my main criteria were smoothness,reliability and first and foremost power tilt.could not get that in anything but my 25 tohatsu,even then i'm 5 horse over my rating.


----------



## Sinkingfast

or need to # 2 really bad.[/quote said:


> If thats all I'm going swimming...just swim upstream..


----------



## scoobeb

bcbouy said:


> for me personally, speed only becomes a factor when i'm full tilt back to shore while outrunning weather or need to # 2 really bad.i'd rather troll nice and slow out and in. my main criteria were smoothness,reliability and first and foremost power tilt.could not get that in anything but my 25 tohatsu,even then i'm 5 horse over my rating.


 Trolling in and out slow is thee flat out worst thing you can do with a 4 stroke outboard, they are designed to run hard,not 600 rpms. I understand if your trolling for fish but you should also do some wot every time you go out because you will never get the engine up to temperature. If I'm going to troll I would not invest in a $4000+ outboard because a 9.9hp or 15hp would be plenty fast to get away from weather. There is a guy across from me I'm my canal who never does anything but a mph in the canal and never goes to open water to run it and it's a 25hp etec with the works,imo a complete waste of money when a 6 or 8hp 4 stroke at less then half the price will do the same exact thing. Me,imo use my outboard as intended,balls to the walls out of the box and I troll very little, if I was going to troll all the time I would get the lowest hp 2 cylinder engine available for the cheapest price because I'm going 1 to 3 mph anyways and it will troll as smooth as a 25hp 2 cylinder for way less money. I live in fl so weather here in summer turns bad in minutes and even with my 9.8hp 2 stroke tohatsu I used to have in out ran hellacious thunderstorms. Like I said this is my opinion.


----------



## scoobeb

I know the tohatsu /merc 25hp is a 3 cylinder but a 2 cylinder would do the job just as well for trolling and getting out of weather.


----------



## DaisyCutter

Well, it's March now. My new Yamaha 25 should be coming sometime this month.

I saw this video and it got me drooling: https://youtu.be/ovDTy6p5bxY

It should make my little Alumacraft V16 go pretty well. It'll even have power trim on the tiller!!

Tick-tock-tick-tock...


----------



## scoobeb

Easy,I was just expressing my opinion like you were,nothing more. You were expressing your opinion on what you use your motor for and I was just trying to give friendly advice but I see clearly you took it the wrong way. You chimed in so I have a right to as well as you do. I didn't tell you how to operate your outboard, I was just explaining trolling with it all the time is not good for it because they tend to make oil which is bad. They never get up to temperature. You took my post completely wrong. If it made you upset I apologize.


----------



## turbotodd

well now that I've seen a video of it running, I think I'm gonna hang onto my antique. After all, it is paid for-and has zero issues other than a scratch or two. Doesn't look to be any quieter or smoother than my current motor either. It'd be nice to have PT&T but I can add that with a CMC without too much problem. May go a little faster too if I need to go #2 real quicklike.


----------



## scoobeb

I'm selling my 20hp suzuki already because I want the 25hp. I can get a new 17 model for a great deal so I may as well do it now. I'm going to do it now or later anyways. It is just a,sweet 3 cylinder suzuki. I had one a few yrs ago when it first came out and I sold my whole package with the 25hp suzuki on it because it was to difficult to sell just the boat and trailer on it's own. The power out of the hole of that 25hp suzuki is incredible, it has as much power as my previous 25hp 2 stroke merc and that is saying I mean alot. The suzuki threw me back in my seat when I hit the throttle. I went up to a 12 pitch prop on it but never measured the speed,I guarantee you though I was definitely going over 30mph. The power is fast and smooth due to the 3 cylinder powerhead and efi combination. It takes off like a jet,lol. I like the idea I have that extra power and wot over the 20hp so I can do 3/4 throttle and still be at 25mph + and on those calm but seldom days I can hammer the throttle then. Jimo,the suzuki is the best all around engine for the money,key word is money.


----------



## DaisyCutter

Well, it's mid March now.

I ordered my Alumacraft utility boat at Cabela's on December 23rd, 2016. Still no boat, still no motor.



Tick-tock-tick-tock...


----------



## Ictalurus

DaisyCutter said:


> Well, it's mid March now.
> 
> I ordered my Alumacraft utility boat at Cabela's on December 23rd, 2016. Still no boat, still no motor.
> 
> 
> 
> Tick-tock-tick-tock...




Yep, BPS and Cabela's (I guess they are now one, which is fitting) have pretty much been turned into a Walmart. I avoid them like the plague these days.


----------



## jy951

I saw the info on that new yamaha 25 also the other day. Its about time they made it fuel injected. I believe the the honda is still carbureted. I'm sure many like carbs, but I'll take fuel injection any day. I went shopping for a new 25 several years ago and it was the etec by a huge margin. If I had to buy a new 25 today, I'd take the etec. Assuming all stock motors, I doubt you'll find a more powerful 25. No maintenance for 3 years, no timing belts, valve adjustments, oil changes, etc.


----------



## Classic25

I was also very interested in the new F25 efi until I stumbled upon a brand new 2016 leftover F25 longshaft with electric start for $2700 which also has the 3 year Yami warranty. The cost savings was enough for me to pass on the efi and stick with the carbed model. Im also interested to see how people like the new model. 

Dave


----------



## scoobeb

Etec is a great outboard, but you won't find a better outboard for the money if you look in the right place for a 25hp efi suzuki. I am waiting on selling my 20hp and I found a brand new in the box 25AS suzuki, 6yr warranty for under $3k. You can't find a base model etec for less than $3500,give or take a few bucks. Then tax and then as most want the 100:1 oil ratio,that is more money for the dealer to do,so your near $4k. I guess if you plan on keeping it for a very long time it would be worth the investment but I will take $1k less any day for a proven efi outboard that is imo state of the art. You will get the same speed and that 3rd cylinder should give you just as much torque as the etec. No doubt the 25hp etec is nice though. Also no using oil as with the suzuki it's once every 100hrs. Good 2 stroke oil is not cheap but a quart and a half of oil and a filter once a yr is. But to each their own. I love yamaha to but imo well overpriced. If it was reasonably priced I may consider it.


----------



## scoobeb

The way engines are built today their all about equal. It comes down to features. The etec tiller is really in a sweet spot also,right in the middle,that could be a huge deciding factor for someone also. Features,features,features and price is what it comes down to.


----------



## scoobeb

DaisyCutter said:


> Well, it's March now. My new Yamaha 25 should be coming sometime this month.
> 
> I saw this video and it got me drooling: https://youtu.be/ovDTy6p5bxY
> 
> It should make my little Alumacraft V16 go pretty well. It'll even have power trim on the tiller!!
> 
> Tick-tock-tick-tock...


The Yamaha should move your boat at least 30+mph I would think. The one thing you don't want to do as much as you will want to is,don't baby your engine,run it hard asap. Get a good 10 minute cycle at home or on the lake where you run it in idle speed for 10 minutes to get all the oil circulated and the engine warm and run that thing. If you baby it,it will,never produce the true power it has because you will,not seat the rings. I have run all my engines hard from the box,not abuse them just vary the rpms up and down and don't be scared of wot. If you don't your rings will not seat. It's of course your call how u run it,read the print on the manual well,it is only their recommendations to basically baby it for hrs. All the nonsense you hear that they will void your warranty is just that. Your engine,you run it the way you want. I'm just giving you very good friendly advice so please don't take it wrong. Your engine must get up to full operating temperature to seat those rings. You get one shot and that is it so do some really good research on this and then do what you feel is right. You invest good money in it so you want the most out of it. Many people are starting to realize this as well,that 4 stroke rings are hard and must be pushed to seat well. Good luck and let us know how it works out.


----------



## scoobeb

Well,I have been going back and forth with this 20 vs 25hp and I ran into some extra money so I am going to sell the 20hp and get the 25hp because I may not have this money again for a long time so I may as well do it now. I first have to sell my 20hp then go shopping.

Think about this for one second,we always talk about how the 25hp is only 5hp more,in reality that is true but really break it all down .

20hp suzuki is 327 CCS and weighs in at 97lbs
25hp suzuki is 489 CCS and weighs in at 136lbs but yet it's only 5hp more. I just don't understand how 5hp can add near 40lbs and a so much larger engine. We're talking about 162 more CCS for just 5hp,that makes 0 sense if you really think about it. That is why I think this yamaha is a more reasonable concept of a 25hp. It only weighs in at 126lbs and is 432 CCs,I truly believe yamaha got this right on. 5hp should not add so much weight to an engine,it just doesn't add up. For examples:

Merc 20hp 115lbs/Merc 25hp is 157lbs
Yamaha 20hp 114lbs/original 25hp 170 lbs
Tohatsu 20hp 114lbs/25hp 157lbs
Suzuki 20hp 97lbs/25hp 136lbs
Honda 20hp 106lbs/25hp 157lbs
You get my drift,a 25hp should not be able to swallow up a 20hp in size. You put a 20hp and 25hp side by side and you can fit the 20hp inside the 25hp and still more room to spare. Something is just not right,so,this is why I think yamaha has come the closest to getting it right with their new 126lbs 25hp compared to 114lb 20hp. That is a whopping 12lbs,lol. That to me is the way it should be with all 20hp going to a 25hp. They should only weigh a few lbs more,not 40,50,60lbs more. You will see 2 things imo start to change in the future, huge weight losses on these 2.5hp through a 30hp tiller. 2nd,the break in process they (RECOMMEND)KEY WORD IS RECOMMENDED will change to near no break in,because it's useless on a 4 stroke. Anyone who knows 4 strokes knows they must be run in hard from minute one and just vary the rpms,that is all that is needed. Babying any outboard from minute one is thee single worst thing you can do to it,if your rings don't seat it will never run at it's full potential and you will never have a second chance to fix that. The problem is people think not getting on an outboard is the correct way to treat your outboard when in fact these engines are designed to go balls to the walls all the time. The harder you run them the better. They have a 6000+ rpm limit for a reason,it's to run that puppy hard not to baby it. It's only a matter of time this is all going to change. I'm calling it now,lol. A lot of the manufacturers are starting to realize alot of engines that come in for issues are from making oil,fuel getting in the oil,it's caused by not getting a outboard up to temperature and fuel getting by the rings,that is why it's so,so important to run a brand new outboard aggressively from the start. This has been a huge problem for mercury so it would not suprise me that they are the first ones to do this. It's a waiting game so we will see who opens up the wave of the future, lol. Please understand, this is just my opinion, but the engines making oil through mercury is a fact and it's getting worse with time so something has to change and they know it.


----------



## Sinkingfast

I bet ya that the higher displacement for only 5 hp on top will give much more low and mid power to get you on plane quicker. I buy not by hp but by most displacement per hp. Isn't the 25 Suz 3 cylinder...I think. For an extra 10lbs one gets an extra cylinder...if it is a 3 juger..


----------



## muddywaders

The new Yamaha 25 will be popular with the microskiff crowd and probably a few duck hunters and is said to have similar power to the twin carb 2-stroke motor(gutless).The 25hp Suzuki is the same platform as their 30hp which costs considerably more($1500 for a different ecu!).I noticed all outboard manufacturers offer their de-rated motors for way less with the exception of the Tohatsu.Is it just marketing or are the higher output versions much more likely to fail under warranty? mw


----------



## scoobeb

You also have to remember, the 30hp only comes in a long shaft and is electric start and power tilt and trim so yes it is $1000 more but your getting considerably more for your money. A 25hp basic model is $3504 and the 30hp with the works is $4500. Displacement isn't everything. The 20hp 4 stroke merc/tohatsu has 351 CCs and the suzuki has 327 CCs and the suzuki imo has more power so the displacement theory is dead. It shouldn't take 162 extra CCs to add an extra 5hp,that seems senseless to me. The suzuki is a 3 cylinder to. I just don't understand the big displacement difference for a measly 5hp that is where I'm getting at. Just seems like an outboard with 162 more CCs should be like a 30 to 40hp not only 5hp more. 162CCs and 40lbs heavier only gets you 5hp,seems unrealistic. I seriously doubt that the new Yamaha 4 stroke outperforms the old 2 stroke,I just don't see it,but you never know. We would have to see the exact same boat,same size weighted person race each other with one of each outboard and see who wins. A properly maintained and perfectly tuned 25hp 2 stroke yamaha should beat the 4 stroke, if not that is a great thing imo,that means the 4 strokes are finally catching or even passing the performance of 2 strokes.


----------



## scoobeb

Also a perfectly tuned 25hp 2 stroke can spin a 13 to 15 pitch prop unlike a 25hp 4 stroke, not happening. With a 14 or 15 pitch prop your lucky to get on plane. My 25hp 2 stroke merc I sold easily spun a 15 pitch prop and the torque was there,I doubt a 25hp 4 stroke has the torque to spin a prop that big at least that I've seen. Most spin 12 pitch props and that is pushing it,lol.


----------



## scoobeb

The merc/tohatsu 25hp 4 stroke has a 526 CCs and the suzuki has 489 CCs and I guarantee you the suzuki smokes the merc. The etec has 577 CCs compared to the suzuki and again I would take the suzuki. They are really close in torque and power and the etec is 88 more CCs, kills that theory also,so while I know the old term there is no replacement for displacement may have been a very true statement in the past,today I believe it to be less important than back in the past. Some sceneries it may come into play like some of the bigger outboards, not so much on the smaller outboards anymore.


----------



## Sinkingfast

scoobeb said:


> The merc/tohatsu 25hp 4 stroke has a 526 CCs and the suzuki has 489 CCs and I guarantee you the suzuki smokes the merc. The etec has 577 CCs compared to the suzuki and again I would take the suzuki. They are really close in torque and power and the etec is 88 more CCs, kills that theory also,so while I know the old term there is no replacement for displacement may have been a very true statement in the past,today I believe it to be less important than back in the past. Some sceneries it may come into play like some of the bigger outboards, not so much on the smaller outboards anymore.



Well..I am still looking for a car with crank windows, inline 6 with 2 speed tranny and a carb so I am old. 

I was thinking in terms of BMP, not most hp. Kinda like a 300hp 454ci verses a 292ci at 300hp. But I also keep my stuff way too long..according to the wife. No, I don't say "like you?" But I am tempted...

All else equivalent I betcha the etec will put out more total gross hp during its lifespan than others today.


----------



## water bouy

This video is a couple of years old and may or may not be relevant but I have noticed a lot of 4 strokes for sale on craigslist lately. I'm happy with an old 25 Merc XD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZvIw83uZgY


----------



## jy951

You will notice the biggest difference in torque and hp when the boats are loaded near capacity. When fully loaded down, I dought any 4 stroke 25 will be even close to the etec.


----------



## Florida_Native

jy951 said:


> I saw the info on that new yamaha 25 also the other day. Its about time they made it fuel injected. I believe the the honda is still carbureted. I'm sure many like carbs, but I'll take fuel injection any day. I went shopping for a new 25 several years ago and it was the etec by a huge margin. If I had to buy a new 25 today, I'd take the etec. Assuming all stock motors, I doubt you'll find a more powerful 25. No maintenance for 3 years, no timing belts, valve adjustments, oil changes, etc.



It was basically fuel injected before. Yes it does have a carburetor, but there is no choke. You just prime the primer ball and it's ready to start.


----------



## Florida_Native

scoobeb said:


> Well,I have been going back and forth with this 20 vs 25hp and I ran into some extra money so I am going to sell the 20hp and get the 25hp because I may not have this money again for a long time so I may as well do it now. I first have to sell my 20hp then go shopping.
> 
> Think about this for one second,we always talk about how the 25hp is only 5hp more,in reality that is true but really break it all down .
> 
> 20hp suzuki is 327 CCS and weighs in at 97lbs
> 25hp suzuki is 489 CCS and weighs in at 136lbs but yet it's only 5hp more. I just don't understand how 5hp can add near 40lbs and a so much larger engine. We're talking about 162 more CCS for just 5hp,that makes 0 sense if you really think about it. That is why I think this yamaha is a more reasonable concept of a 25hp. It only weighs in at 126lbs and is 432 CCs,I truly believe yamaha got this right on. 5hp should not add so much weight to an engine,it just doesn't add up. For examples:
> 
> Merc 20hp 115lbs/Merc 25hp is 157lbs
> Yamaha 20hp 114lbs/original 25hp 170 lbs
> Tohatsu 20hp 114lbs/25hp 157lbs
> Suzuki 20hp 97lbs/25hp 136lbs
> Honda 20hp 106lbs/25hp 157lbs
> You get my drift,a 25hp should not be able to swallow up a 20hp in size. You put a 20hp and 25hp side by side and you can fit the 20hp inside the 25hp and still more room to spare. Something is just not right,so,this is why I think yamaha has come the closest to getting it right with their new 126lbs 25hp compared to 114lb 20hp. That is a whopping 12lbs,lol. That to me is the way it should be with all 20hp going to a 25hp. They should only weigh a few lbs more,not 40,50,60lbs more. You will see 2 things imo start to change in the future, huge weight losses on these 2.5hp through a 30hp tiller. 2nd,the break in process they (RECOMMEND)KEY WORD IS RECOMMENDED will change to near no break in,because it's useless on a 4 stroke. Anyone who knows 4 strokes knows they must be run in hard from minute one and just vary the rpms,that is all that is needed. Babying any outboard from minute one is thee single worst thing you can do to it,if your rings don't seat it will never run at it's full potential and you will never have a second chance to fix that. The problem is people think not getting on an outboard is the correct way to treat your outboard when in fact these engines are designed to go balls to the walls all the time. The harder you run them the better. They have a 6000+ rpm limit for a reason,it's to run that puppy hard not to baby it. It's only a matter of time this is all going to change. I'm calling it now,lol. A lot of the manufacturers are starting to realize alot of engines that come in for issues are from making oil,fuel getting in the oil,it's caused by not getting a outboard up to temperature and fuel getting by the rings,that is why it's so,so important to run a brand new outboard aggressively from the start. This has been a huge problem for mercury so it would not suprise me that they are the first ones to do this. It's a waiting game so we will see who opens up the wave of the future, lol. Please understand, this is just my opinion, but the engines making oil through mercury is a fact and it's getting worse with time so something has to change and they know it.



So what you are saying is that Yamaha (the people who manufacture the motor) don't know how to property break in an outboard? That's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## turbotodd

Florida_Native said:


> jy951 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw the info on that new yamaha 25 also the other day. Its about time they made it fuel injected. I believe the the honda is still carbureted. I'm sure many like carbs, but I'll take fuel injection any day. I went shopping for a new 25 several years ago and it was the etec by a huge margin. If I had to buy a new 25 today, I'd take the etec. Assuming all stock motors, I doubt you'll find a more powerful 25. No maintenance for 3 years, no timing belts, valve adjustments, oil changes, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was basically fuel injected before. Yes it does have a carburetor, but there is no choke. You just prime the primer ball and it's ready to start.
Click to expand...


And again, the ETEC is no better than any of the 4 stroke offerings. It's heavy (for a 2 stroke), complex, takes special oil unless it's "tuned" by the selling dealer, ugly, etc. What is that thing? 160 lbs? Come on...I thought the main selling point of sticking with a 2 stroke was lighter weight. Blew that right out of the water. No timing belt. When's the last time anyone's heard of a 25hp Yamaha needing a timing belt? I've replaced ONE in the 25 years I've messed with motors, and only because Mr. Customer requested it (there was nothing wrong with the OEM belt). Valve adjustment? When I worked at the dealer, we sold about 400 F25's. Out of those, I think maybe 10 had valve adjustments...or more specifically valve CHECK. I don't recall having to adjust them, usually spot on. Mine is the same way.

There's a lot more bad info on this site than one can shake a stick at, and it's not just from one user. What I see a lot of is folks that are die hard 2 smokers spewing their biased opinions, among other things. One user said a Yamaha 2 stroke twin carb 25 was a turd. Compared to what? A 3 cylinder? They both make 25hp bone stock....seen it on a dyno with my own eyes. Just the same as all of the 4 stroke motors with the exception of the new 25, seen them all make 25hp on a dyno. One user says a 2 stroke will spin a 15" prop. True. But let's not forget that some 2 stroke motors also have a higher gearcase ratio. Many have a 2.08 ratio, some were higher and those will be able to make use of more pitch. The merc big foot was one, so was the high-thrust 25hp Yamaha. Where the misconception also came in on that note was that the 2 stroke motors are a little less sensitive to prop selection...and I've seen a few that were so grossly overpropped that the owner didn't know any better, for instance a 25hp 2 stroke twin carb with a 13" SRA stuck on it. Did it turn it? Yep. Customer's complaint was that the engine overheats and goes into limp mode, but only with a heavy load. Well my goodness, lug the thing around at 4000 RPM full throttle with a load on it, at full throttle, and yes it sure can overheat. That's hard on the pistons, rings, everything actually. I gave him my spare 10 1/2" prop and told him to try it. Fixed-and went 6 mph faster with the "smaller" prop, with the same load. Wouldn't plane before. But I have no clue what I'm talking about I guess. But on the 4 stroke stuff, they're more sensitive to prop selection. MOST users/tuners think that since it comes with a 10 1/2" pitch, that a 13" should make it go 3 mph faster. Nope. Lots of times maybe 1.5 mph but more importantly it lugs the pee out of the engine, consuming more fuel, giving the user a feeling of being a slug at anything less than full throttle. No tach to verify that it's running close to where it should in most cases. I get the call often at work. "Can I put a bigger prop on for more speed"? Yep. But it might or might not go faster. What's your current maximum RPM? Response....uhhh....I don't know how do I know that? My first thought is get a tach and then call me back. Without the data, we're just shooting blanks and hoping something will hit a target. Another thing, the HULL has a LOT to do with speed. A purpose built hull, built for speed and speed only in a straight line, with a bone stock 25hp motor can easily achieve 50mph if it's set up right, with the right prop. But a jon, not likely to happen. Some jons are faster than others. Some handle better than others. But for a person to say "well my 25hp is faster than brand X" is meaningless without knowing, again, all the data. Hull type, drag, atmospheric conditions, etc. On that note, I am a member on another board and I see the 25hp arguements often. Many claimed that their bone stock 25hp motors on their Edge 550 will go 38 mph. I called one user out because I knew he was local, and said let's go to the local lake. His response was that his boat doesn't go that fast on that lake. I'm like What? Then it came out...he was going full throttle DOWNRIVER on a local small river, which also happens to have a 8 mph current at times. So out of curiousity, I ran mine...mine's typically 29.5-29.8 on the right water conditions, at 6200 RPM. GPS upriver averaged 24 mph. Down river, in the current, 36. Stopped, shut motor off and measured current drifting speed-7.8 mph in most areas except the 2 narrow shoals that were a hair over 8.

Listen, folks, I've been that die hard 2 stroke guy. When the 4 stroke stuff started getting sorta popular, back in the 1990's, I said I'd never own one. I worked on one or two Honda's (carbs usually), worked on a Yamaha or two, usually maintenance related (rarely a repair), but continued to use my twin carb 25, and very seldom my 3 cylinder 25. In '06 I believe, I run across a guy who had a F25 on a Grumman 1542, for a great price. Figured I'd buy the whole rig and sell the motor. It sat it's entire life, used less than 1 hour every year to run from the ramp to a duck blind across the river. I got it running and decided I had to try it out. About 3 months later I sold my twin carb 25, no use for it after falling in love with the 4 stroke. And that's what I said too, I didn't want no oil change hassle, no adjustment, belt, weight...but I'm here to tell ya, from my own personal experience, that it's worth the "extra hassle"-which again is so minute that it's ridiculous to even bring it up. It's just one more of BRP's gimmicks so that they can justify their 2 stroke, and many have embraced it. And in my case, it ain't just Yamaha...I also have had a Tohatsu 25 at one point, a Tohatsu 20hp (with power tilt), a Honda 25hp, and for a brief while, had access to a Merc 25 (tohatsu). I like the 3 cylinder motors a little better but it comes at a cost....weight (and lots of it).


----------



## Sinkingfast

Its not about top hp or speed for me. Its about utility. Can I maybe carry an extra person or two without a prop change? According to that video the 2 stroke has better utility. I like area under the hp curve. 

I have checked claims of top speed on the prop calculator from members. And yes most are going with the current...

4 stroke outboards are like helicopters...a necessary contraption. 
2 stroke outboards are like airplanes...they flow like a bird as Mother Nature intended.
But then again I'd buy a 25hp 170lbs 2 stroke diesel if I could...

What was the op's question anyway..


----------



## Florida_Native

jy951 said:


> You will notice the biggest difference in torque and hp when the boats are loaded near capacity. When fully loaded down, I dought any 4 stroke 25 will be even close to the etec.



I used to have a 25, when loaded down with 4 people the boat would barely plane. I now have a new 25 Yamaha and it rides the same empty as it does loaded down. The added weight doesn't seem to affect it. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## muddywaders

Florida Native what was your previous motor and is your new Yamaha the 2017 model?I am considering a four-stroke Yamaha 25 and I am worried it wont have enough torque.I am currently running a 25hp 2-stroke Yamaha on a 14' v-hull that I use on the ocean.When I'm pushing through big waves the boat will slow the revs will drop and I have to throttle up to get back on plane and the fuel consumption goes up.I tried going down to a 10 1/2" prop which helped but now it burns even more fuel.The old 30hp 2-stroke that I previously ran would push through waves at a constant rpm and actually used less fuel than the current 25hp.I want better fuel economy but the performance of the four-stroke Yamaha would have to be as good or better than my current motor.


----------



## Florida_Native

muddywaders said:


> Florida Native what was your previous motor and is your new Yamaha the 2017 model?I am considering a four-stroke Yamaha 25 and I am worried it wont have enough torque.I am currently running a 25hp 2-stroke Yamaha on a 14' v-hull that I use on the ocean.When I'm pushing through big waves the boat will slow the revs will drop and I have to throttle up to get back on plane and the fuel consumption goes up.I tried going down to a 10 1/2" prop which helped but now it burns even more fuel.The old 30hp 2-stroke that I previously ran would push through waves at a constant rpm and actually used less fuel than the current 25hp.I want better fuel economy but the performance of the four-stroke Yamaha would have to be as good or better than my current motor.



I used to have a 25 Evinrude 2 stroke and it weighted maybe 125 or so. I have a 2016 Yamaha so it's still the heavier one. My boat planes much better and I have more in between speeds with the newer motor. When I had my old motor it rode like a tin can, bumpy and basically WOT all the time. 

I have a 16' though and it's pretty wide, if I put that motor on a 14' idk how well it would go over. I think it would be too heavy. If you could get the lighter Yamaha and I think that might be a good option. I'll post a picture of the rig later. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jy951

turbotodd said:


> Florida_Native said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jy951 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw the info on that new yamaha 25 also the other day. Its about time they made it fuel injected. I believe the the honda is still carbureted. I'm sure many like carbs, but I'll take fuel injection any day. I went shopping for a new 25 several years ago and it was the etec by a huge margin. If I had to buy a new 25 today, I'd take the etec. Assuming all stock motors, I doubt you'll find a more powerful 25. No maintenance for 3 years, no timing belts, valve adjustments, oil changes, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was basically fuel injected before. Yes it does have a carburetor, but there is no choke. You just prime the primer ball and it's ready to start.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And again, the ETEC is no better than any of the 4 stroke offerings. It's heavy (for a 2 stroke), complex, takes special oil unless it's "tuned" by the selling dealer, ugly, etc. What is that thing? 160 lbs? Come on...I thought the main selling point of sticking with a 2 stroke was lighter weight. Blew that right out of the water. No timing belt. When's the last time anyone's heard of a 25hp Yamaha needing a timing belt? I've replaced ONE in the 25 years I've messed with motors, and only because Mr. Customer requested it (there was nothing wrong with the OEM belt). Valve adjustment? When I worked at the dealer, we sold about 400 F25's. Out of those, I think maybe 10 had valve adjustments...or more specifically valve CHECK. I don't recall having to adjust them, usually spot on. Mine is the same way.
> 
> There's a lot more bad info on this site than one can shake a stick at, and it's not just from one user. What I see a lot of is folks that are die hard 2 smokers spewing their biased opinions, among other things. One user said a Yamaha 2 stroke twin carb 25 was a turd. Compared to what? A 3 cylinder? They both make 25hp bone stock....seen it on a dyno with my own eyes. Just the same as all of the 4 stroke motors with the exception of the new 25, seen them all make 25hp on a dyno. One user says a 2 stroke will spin a 15" prop. True. But let's not forget that some 2 stroke motors also have a higher gearcase ratio. Many have a 2.08 ratio, some were higher and those will be able to make use of more pitch. The merc big foot was one, so was the high-thrust 25hp Yamaha. Where the misconception also came in on that note was that the 2 stroke motors are a little less sensitive to prop selection...and I've seen a few that were so grossly overpropped that the owner didn't know any better, for instance a 25hp 2 stroke twin carb with a 13" SRA stuck on it. Did it turn it? Yep. Customer's complaint was that the engine overheats and goes into limp mode, but only with a heavy load. Well my goodness, lug the thing around at 4000 RPM full throttle with a load on it, at full throttle, and yes it sure can overheat. That's hard on the pistons, rings, everything actually. I gave him my spare 10 1/2" prop and told him to try it. Fixed-and went 6 mph faster with the "smaller" prop, with the same load. Wouldn't plane before. But I have no clue what I'm talking about I guess. But on the 4 stroke stuff, they're more sensitive to prop selection. MOST users/tuners think that since it comes with a 10 1/2" pitch, that a 13" should make it go 3 mph faster. Nope. Lots of times maybe 1.5 mph but more importantly it lugs the pee out of the engine, consuming more fuel, giving the user a feeling of being a slug at anything less than full throttle. No tach to verify that it's running close to where it should in most cases. I get the call often at work. "Can I put a bigger prop on for more speed"? Yep. But it might or might not go faster. What's your current maximum RPM? Response....uhhh....I don't know how do I know that? My first thought is get a tach and then call me back. Without the data, we're just shooting blanks and hoping something will hit a target. Another thing, the HULL has a LOT to do with speed. A purpose built hull, built for speed and speed only in a straight line, with a bone stock 25hp motor can easily achieve 50mph if it's set up right, with the right prop. But a jon, not likely to happen. Some jons are faster than others. Some handle better than others. But for a person to say "well my 25hp is faster than brand X" is meaningless without knowing, again, all the data. Hull type, drag, atmospheric conditions, etc. On that note, I am a member on another board and I see the 25hp arguements often. Many claimed that their bone stock 25hp motors on their Edge 550 will go 38 mph. I called one user out because I knew he was local, and said let's go to the local lake. His response was that his boat doesn't go that fast on that lake. I'm like What? Then it came out...he was going full throttle DOWNRIVER on a local small river, which also happens to have a 8 mph current at times. So out of curiousity, I ran mine...mine's typically 29.5-29.8 on the right water conditions, at 6200 RPM. GPS upriver averaged 24 mph. Down river, in the current, 36. Stopped, shut motor off and measured current drifting speed-7.8 mph in most areas except the 2 narrow shoals that were a hair over 8.
> 
> Listen, folks, I've been that die hard 2 stroke guy. When the 4 stroke stuff started getting sorta popular, back in the 1990's, I said I'd never own one. I worked on one or two Honda's (carbs usually), worked on a Yamaha or two, usually maintenance related (rarely a repair), but continued to use my twin carb 25, and very seldom my 3 cylinder 25. In '06 I believe, I run across a guy who had a F25 on a Grumman 1542, for a great price. Figured I'd buy the whole rig and sell the motor. It sat it's entire life, used less than 1 hour every year to run from the ramp to a duck blind across the river. I got it running and decided I had to try it out. About 3 months later I sold my twin carb 25, no use for it after falling in love with the 4 stroke. And that's what I said too, I didn't want no oil change hassle, no adjustment, belt, weight...but I'm here to tell ya, from my own personal experience, that it's worth the "extra hassle"-which again is so minute that it's ridiculous to even bring it up. It's just one more of BRP's gimmicks so that they can justify their 2 stroke, and many have embraced it. And in my case, it ain't just Yamaha...I also have had a Tohatsu 25 at one point, a Tohatsu 20hp (with power tilt), a Honda 25hp, and for a brief while, had access to a Merc 25 (tohatsu). I like the 3 cylinder motors a little better but it comes at a cost....weight (and lots of it).
Click to expand...


Just because you see them all make peak hp of 25hp does not mean they will perform the same.


----------



## scoobeb

So what you are saying is that Yamaha (the people who manufacture the motor) don't know how to property break in an outboard? That's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]
I'm saying if you know a 4 stroke outboard, you can't and will not set the rings hands down,babying a outboard. Their(again recommended) break in is for liability only,nothing more.It doesn't take 10 hrs to break in any outboard today because tolerances are so close that once the rings are set what else needs to be done,nothing. Setting the rings are thee most important thing to do on any outboard besides warming it up properly. Why do you think so many of mercury outboards were having issues making oil,because they baby their engine from the jump and never create enough heat and pressure to set the rings.Going easy on a 4 stroke outboard is the worst thing for it and if your outboard has the oil making issue your out of luck because you get one chance to seat them right. Do research and you will learn alot about this . In time it will change,it's a proven fact if you don't run a new outboard up to full temperature to create heat to set the rings you more than likely will make oil or not get 100% power out of the outboard. I never said beat the poop out of it,just run it like you normally would but wot bursts are a must to create heat and pressure to set the rings,I'm just stating what so many are starting to realize. No I'm not smarter then yamaha or any of them I just know 4 stroke rings are hard and need pressure and babying it won't work.


----------



## scoobeb

This is a quote from boats.com,from one of mercuy's oil specialists on a new engine and breaking it in. That is coming straight from mercury marine. The only thing that needs sufficient break in is rings,that is it,that is just a known fact of every outboard engine,so there is no need to baby a new outboard whatsoever from the box.

"In most cases the form, fit, and function of new engine parts is of sufficiently good quality surface finish, and good tolerance dimensionally, that it is not necessary to break-in new hardware,” says Mercury oil specialist Frank Kelley.


----------



## timsmcm

scoobeb said:


> This is a quote from boats.com,from one of mercuy's oil specialists on a new engine and breaking it in. That is coming straight from mercury marine. The only thing that needs sufficient break in is rings,that is it,that is just a known fact of every outboard engine,so there is no need to baby a new outboard whatsoever from the box.
> 
> "In most cases the form, fit, and function of new engine parts is of sufficiently good quality surface finish, and good tolerance dimensionally, that it is not necessary to break-in new hardware,” says Mercury oil specialist Frank Kelley.


yes I always take the word of a sales man as the word of god. Just go out and jam up a brand new motor, yep.


----------



## Sinkingfast

timsmcm said:


> scoobeb said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a quote from boats.com,from one of mercuy's oil specialists on a new engine and breaking it in. That is coming straight from mercury marine. The only thing that needs sufficient break in is rings,that is it,that is just a known fact of every outboard engine,so there is no need to baby a new outboard whatsoever from the box.
> 
> "In most cases the form, fit, and function of new engine parts is of sufficiently good quality surface finish, and good tolerance dimensionally, that it is not necessary to break-in new hardware,” says Mercury oil specialist Frank Kelley.
> 
> 
> 
> yes I always take the word of a sales man as the word of god. Just go out and jam up a brand new motor, yep.
Click to expand...


Awww..the coolaid is pretty good..don't spoil it..


----------



## scoobeb

Saleman,who said salesman. Please explain to how you will jam up an outboard if you run some wot from the start? If the engine is a lemon or has issues from the get go no easy or hard running will fix that and that means it was just broken from jump street. The guy works directly for mercury to by the way, this guy isn't some random Saleman at a marina. Hey,no one is telling you or anyone else how to break in a engine. I'm just telling you the facts and passing on some helpful tips. You follow what makes u happy. If people baby their engines out of the box and you don't set the rings asap your crap out of luck is the nice term,lol. You can follow whatever break in you want,that is why we live in america,freedom to do as we want. I'm just passing on good friendly advice. 

Also I love when I hear well if I don't follow the break in to a T they will void my warranty, that is absolute nonsense and so untrue. Again read what the manual says,it is just the (manufacturers recommendation) on how to break in your engine. You can do it anyway you want,whatever makes you the happiest . I said a few yrs back in time every outboard will be efi of dfi and it's starting to slowly happen,it time this break in process in the book will change,when,who knows but it will one day maybe sooner than later if they want to stop this oil making issue for good. No engine needs 10hrs,to be broken in,an hr or so and she should be good to go,give it some time it will change.


All I know is if I spend say $15k on a engine and I were to follow the break in by basically taking it easy for a few hrs like it says which is thee most critical time to seat the rings and you have an oil making issue with your engine,guess who is fixing that,more than likely not them,you will. This is no secret,it's been proven over and over. A while back the 115hp yamaha and merc,(same powerhead at the time)were having big problems with this. Motor after motor,after motor was coming in due to all of them making oil,what was the answer by merc, to many people are babying their engines from the get go and they are not seating the rings. Why this hasn't been fixed yet as far as the break in process changing is a mystery but in time it will. Till then people really should self educate on this because it's the most important part of the engine working properly. Who wants to constantly drain oil because fuel gets in it,I'm sure not every single engine will get affected by this but there will be plenty that do. If you don't get your engine up to temperature your doing more harm then good. All the break in process they recommend is so if something were to happen early out of the box and your doing a relatively low rpm they maybe able to catch it before going wot and a serious catastrophe happens ,it's a liability thing,nothing more. I have never claimed to be smarter then a manufacturer or anyone else but this has been an issue for yrs now and the manufacturers should fix this. These engines of today are way different then yrs ago and don't need much more then a good hr or so to seat the rings,once that is done just vary the rpms as we would do normal anyways and there should never be an outboard making oil other then to much trolling can do so. But again,that is easy to fix. If trolling all day ,at the end of the day take it around the lake to get it up to temperature(wot) and there will be no issues. We as people need to self educate ourselves when it comes to this stuff. The bottom line is doing some wot bursts will do way more good for a brand new engine then,babying it from the get go. I go by results,most people who have had oil making issues babies their engines from the jump,the people who are not afraid to open it up,not abuse,open it up have had 0 issues with making oil other then from trolling,that is a fact not a guess or opinion.


----------



## scoobeb

I apologize if I offended anyone. I just wanted to try and help people by doing alot of digging. I'm not trying to convince anyone to break in a engine hard,I just want people to know you have that option and should really do your research before running a new engine and having issues that can't be corrected as with the oil making issue in general.So based on results so far breaking in a engine by babying it seems to do way more harm then good from everything I have read for many yrs now and that includes manufacturers themselves chiming in on the subject . I won't speak of it anymore. Back to our regularly scheduled program of the 25hp efi yamaha, lol.


----------



## Jim

Oh my, I missed this thread completely. I'm afraid to go back and read it. Let's remember that for every member on this thread there are probably 100 fold of guests who will also read these posts. I would love them to join our friendly, family-oriented, respectful, helpful site.  

I love the collaboration we have built here, and to let you guys know, I get PM's and emails all the time letting me know how much people have learned from surfing our site. Keep it up guys!

Jim


----------



## DaisyCutter

Well, I'm still waiting for my chance to break one in.

I made the 50 mile one way trip to Cabela's on Saturday. I showed a manager my receipt for the Alumacraft utility boat and motor I paid nearly $10,000 cash for in December.

I was told 8-10 weeks for the boat, early to mod-March for the motor.

I have neither.

My salesman wasn't at work, so a different salesman made a copy of my receipt and said he's sorry it out and give me an update Monday.

It's Tuesday now. No word. It's been 103 days since I ordered this boat and the Yamaha 25.

Has anyone gotten their new F25 yet?

I kinda want this combo, a light 285lb V-16 Alumacraft with a EFI Yam 25 tiller sounds like a really efficient setup.

Lund and Tracker have boats that are minimally more money, with more features (and weight). 

Should I ask for my money back from Cabela's or keep waiting? Boat season has started in AZ.



BTW, in the motorcycle world Yamaha pulls twice the HP out of half the CCs. I usually take 30 minutes over a couple heat cycles to break in a new motocross bike. Years ago, I was changing rings at 20 hours and pistons at 40 hours, so a 10 hour break in would've been absurd. Still, aluminum (pistons) has a higher heat expansion rate than steel (cylinder). If the piston of your new engine is on the plus side of the tolerance and your cylinder bore is on the minus side, then making a lot of heat WOT on a *brand new* engine might be a recipe for a squeaked or seized piston. I squeaked a few new Honda CR500 pistons in my day. The open class 2-stroke was a PITA because the bigger piston meant more expansion (vs a 125 or 250), so it was near impossible to have it not rattle & slap the skirt when cold, yet not seize WOT in a long sand wash. The cure was to live with a little piston slap, do a very long warm up each race day pre-race, and religiously check for cracks in the piston skirt by looking through the exhaust port. Some racers, in long straights, would occasionally hold the kill switch for a second with the throttle pinned to douche the top-end with cool gasoline.

Ultimately, I think for 99% of people the 'break in procedure' makes no difference, and for the 1%er who's engine is a lemon, it's probably got a defect that no method of break in would've cured.

A 25hp outboard isn't a race engine or phallic extension. I'm not worried about whether it makes 24.8 or 25.1 HP, as long as it performs appropriately, efficiently, and doesn't strand me.

Heck, I'd be happy if Yamaha would simply produce what I paid for!!


----------



## scoobeb

Ultimately, I think for 99% of people the 'break in procedure' makes no difference, and for the 1%er who's engine is a lemon, it's probably got a defect that no method of break in would've cured.

I couldn't of said it any better myself . Nothing will cure a lemon,not running easy or hard. If it's defective from the factory then no break in process will cure or help it. I have had 4 brand new engines I kept for 5-7yrs or longer and I never broke one in except for my way,hard but not abusing it. All my engines created tremendous power to weight ratio. I had a 9.8hp 2 stroke tohatsu that ran a 12 ft light alumacraft boat so fast it barely touched the water. That motor was bought in 2001 for $1400 and I know who has it now and it runs awesome 16yrs later,not one issue . $1400 was the good old days,lol. 59lbs that motor weighed,I should've never got rid of it,lol.


----------



## scoobeb

DaisyCutter said:


> I ordered the new Yamaha F25 last week. It won't be available until mid March. I will definitely post a review once I get it.
> 
> On the spec sheet, the Suzuki initially seems like it may be a stronger performer, with more displacement and an extra cylinder over the Yamaha. The Suzuki is cheaper too. I really contemplated the Suzuki. But consider both Yamaha and Suzuki build 50hp, 449cc, single cylinder high performance motocross bikes.. I can attest that my 2008 Yamaha 450 motocross bike has never been rebuilt, and still runs strong. So Yamaha should have no problem getting 25 reliable horsepower out of a ~430cc twin.
> 
> 
> The biggest reason I chose the Yamaha over the Suzuki, is that Suzuki is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy every other year, and there are a lot of service and warranty horror stories. The Suzuki website is really crude. Half of their motorcycles are only offered every other year it seems. Suzuki cars have evaporated from Planet Earth. I have low faith in the Suzuki warranty, especially compared to Yamaha.


Just wondering what you paid for yours because boats.net has the 15 inch shaft ,manual start for $3100 and change. That is a really great price on a 25hp yamaha.


----------



## DaisyCutter

I don't know yet what the price will be. I ordered the Alumacraft V-16 on December 23rd with a Merc 20 hp and a bimini top, gel met battery and other doodads. I paid $92XX.XX at the time.

I changed the motor to the new Yam F25 "C", with all the options a month later. It'll be close to $5,000, but I don't know exactly.

Thursday I finally heard from my Cabela's salesman. He said the "load date" for my Alumacraft is April 28th. It'll be 120+ days waiting. He says the new Yamaha 25s are available and won't be a problem to get.


So my frustrations should be directed at Alumacraft and their arrangement with Cabelas, not Yamaha.


----------



## scoobeb

So your getting a tiller version or remote?Your getting all the works then to,power tilt and trim and electric start?$5000 seems some what steep,i hope the price is better than that especially waiting all this time.When you get it please let me know how she runs,i'm extremely interested especially knowing they are only $3100.That is a killer deal on any 25hp.


----------



## turbotodd

Local dealer hasn't gotten any in yet, either. I asked when, the dealership principal-whom I was talking to-pointed across the room at a guy standing there talking to a salesman. That was the Yamaha rep. So I asked him directly. Nobody knows when they'll ship. Not even the rep, going on to say that many dealers don't want any yet because they're still loaded up with F25A's and B's (2015 and 2016's), and we all know that once the C's hit the floor, ain't nobody gonna want the old ones. So maybe Yamaha has decided to hold them until the dealers deplete current stocks. Don't know.


----------



## scoobeb

They will have to blow those other heavy 25hp yamaha's out with a clearance price. I see some dealers doing it already. The f25s are coming way down in price to get rid of then to make room for the new ones. Hopefully you get it soon.


----------



## Zum

I hardly ever go to the yamaha suzuki dealer here, it's only a half hour away but know where near anything. I did go today though, the water impeller kit for my old 86 30hp mariner (yamaha made)was only $87 canadian....at the Mercury place they wanted $67 just for the impeller and that wasn't in stock.anyways while I was there ask if they had any of the new 25hp yamaha in, she said 7 (3 electric 4 pull) all still in the crates though. She told me 5 were already sold but had 2 pull starts left....quoted me a price of $4500 canadian taxes in. Personally, I think it's going to be a little small for my 1652 and I also want to wait a bit to see more real person reviews.


----------



## scoobeb

Zum,i'm sure that 25 hp yamaha will push your 1652 with no issues but if you can get the 25 hp efi suzuki for the same price it's only 10lbs more and has a 3rd cylinder and more displacement for more power. 6yr warranty also is nice.Plus it's been out a few yrs now and people love them.Any kinks like most new toys have if any have been i'm sure ironed out.I had a 25 hp suzuki and like a dummy sold it.I wanted the 2 stroke and to be totally honest whether anyone believes me or not the 25 hp suzuki has every bit of power as most 2 stroke 25's. Imo hands down the best outboard to buy in the 25 hp class as of now.Yeah,maybe a 25 hp etec could be better but you will pay near a thousand more for it once it's all said and done.If your looking for a 25 hp now the suzuki is the best money can buy imo. i 'm sure the yamaha will be just as good because they make awesome engines but that 3rd cylinder and extra displacement would come in very handy for you.


----------



## DaisyCutter

My boat and new 25 Yamaha ship on April 28th. So I should have it soon after.

I'm dying here.


----------



## Zum

DaisyCutter said:


> My boat and new 25 Yamaha ship on April 28th. So I should have it soon after.
> 
> I'm dying here.


Be sure to give some reviews maybe even a video....the people want to know....


----------



## scoobeb

Can't wait to get your new toy,lol.


----------



## scoobeb

Any news on your new rig yet,can't wait to hear I'm sure good news on the Yamaha.


----------



## Mainia

I moved this posting I did here to it's own thread, as not to alter his Yamaha thread. Sorry.

https://www.forum.tinboats.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=43058




.


----------



## DaisyCutter

Talked to Cabela's last week. They got my boat and asked when I wanted to pick it up. I had a previously scheduled California trip through Friday, so I said I'd pick up my new boat today. I quizzed Cabela's on everything, from the trailer to the bimini top. I got the call yesterday from Cabela's, my motor shipped without the tiller handle and the hardware is on 2 week backorder. The one question I didn't ask. I was told I can take the boat as-is and use the electric motor. I declined and said I'm contemplating asking for my $9132.88 back. The sales manager said it may take a month to cut a check (a veiled threat).

I paid Cabela's for this boat in advance, on December 23rd of 2016. I was told 8-10 weeks worst case. It's nearly mid-May now.

I called back yesterday afternoon and said I want a 5% discount off the package.  I was told I'd have my answer on Monday.

I really like this boat. The little V-16 Alumacraft has a basic vinyl floor and weighs less than 300 pounds. It should fly with an EFI 25hp Yamaha and be very efficient to operate. 

On the other side, the money I paid in December plus the money I saved since could buy a boat with more features, like a Lund Rebel 1600. Plus I'd get a road trip to Utah.

Gawd I'm irritated at Cabela's Glendale AZ.


----------



## Zum

It's one thing if they told you it would be 5/6 months but man...I'd be pissed too
If your thinking you might like the lund and it's going to be in the back of your mind maybe that is the way to go. It's a tough call...I once had a new car in my yard pretty much all the paper work done and they wouldn't pay for the undercoating...told them to take it back. They then said they would pay for it but me being a little stubborn said it was too late...ended up buying a different brand, for more money,from another dealer.
They should at least compensate you with some extras or money if you stay with Cabelas.
Do you think it's because they were bought Out?


----------



## scoobeb

That really stinks but they never tell you the actual truth I have noticed. I mean most places are like that. A while back I ordered a carb from boats.net and it was on backorder. They told me the same crap,oh it should definitely be here in a few weeks,I call after a month goes by,oh it's any day now, another month goes by and I said ok,I want my money back and they were good for that and I know to a point it wasn't their fault but I told them why not just be completely honest and tell me were not sure when it's coming instead of leading me on month after month so I know how frustrating it can get. I also won't order something that is just coming out due to exactly what your going through. That is a bunch of garbage and I would demand my money back and find another boat or just buy the same boat with a suzuki on it. Just my 2 cents. I guess though you waited this long,if you have the patience you can wait it out a bit longer if you really want it. I feel your pain though,really sucks and they should do something for you like a nice gift card or something.


----------



## DaisyCutter

Well, Cabelas agreed to take $500 off the package price. That number is right near the 5% I asked for, in exchange for waiting another 2 weeks.



So I go back to waiting, tick-tock-tick-tock.



I don't think I'll ever order a boat again, and I'll never pay up front.


EDIT:. I don't think this is buyout related. I'm relatively certain Cabela's only orders the motor once the boat is getting shipped. So despite getting paid in December, they didn't order the Yamaha outboard until a couple weeks ago, which is when they discovered the backordered tiller.


----------



## scoobeb

That is a great deal, $500 off,can't complain about that. Well now it's a waiting game. Now you can buy extra stuff needed for your boat with the extra money. If your looking for an outboard cover as I would to protect your outboard check this out as I bought one today and they are awesome quality for a great price. They have 4 different colors to. Check them out.


https://m.ebay.com/itm/NEW-GREEN-VORTEX-COMPLETE-OUTBOARD-MOTOR-COVER-HOODIE-25-30-HP-/371556962396?hash=item568285505c%3Ag%3ATu4AAOSwQYZWxfAX&_trkparms=pageci%253Ab5250ccd-34f7-11e7-8865-74dbd1a0979a%257Cparentrq%253Aeef0e2dc15b0a35713ba1c36fffd01d3%257Ciid%253A2


----------



## turbotodd

Seen the local dealer today, wanted to look at a new one. They still don't have them. But they have plenty of the older ones, and they're severely discounted. The 20hp was $1000 off. They had brand new 25's (2016's) electric start long shaft manual tilt (with tilt assist) for $3399 which I thought was pretty good. The 20 was priced a LOT better though, I want to say it was $2299 but I could be wrong since I did not look at it that closely. Salesman said they had a few of both in stock, some on the floor and some in boxes. If I was in the market for one, I'd sure jump on the pricing for the '16's.


----------



## DaisyCutter

Still waiting, tick-tock-tick-tock.

Saw this video:. https://youtu.be/aBJxBpxIb78

Dying here.


----------



## Johnny

Scoob - about 15 years ago, I went to my Jon Boat dealer in Orlando
to inquire about a new Johnson 25 and he said he had switched to Yamaha
exclusivly and he had one new "last years" Yamaha model left before the new
ones hit the shelf and it was right at $3,000.00 then for the basic pull start
tiller 2 stroke..... so with your information, I am surprised that they still
hold their value. (( I ended up keeping my mid-70s Johnson ))
wishing you much happiness and safety with your new ride !!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## DaisyCutter

I called Cabela's again today and got the latest info on my boat. The salesman says he has good news and bad news. According to him the tiller handle arrived, but the controls didn't. His Yamaha rep says the controls are backordered until June.

I ordered this boat and paid on December 23rd. Alumacraft has exactly 4 options for the V-16, red, blue, white or Khaki. Cabela's only stocks white, so I ordered a red one. I was told 8-10 weeks of waiting.

I'm driving to Cabela's in a couple hours. I don't know what I'm going to do.


----------



## Florida_Native

DaisyCutter said:


> Still waiting, tick-tock-tick-tock.
> 
> Saw this video:. https://youtu.be/aBJxBpxIb78
> 
> Dying here.



This video isn't that impressive lol. I've towed skiers with my old 96 25 Evinrude. I feel like any 25 with the appropriate size boat should be able to do that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DaisyCutter

So I did get a chance to see my boat, in pieces, in the Cabela's back lot.







And the motor, less tiller and controls.







They say June. Tick-tock-tick-tock


----------



## Zum

See if you can get a deal (maybe free) guide-ons....really help when loading the boat.
June is not real far away...hope there isn't to many more delays.


----------



## Stumpalump

That is the Cabellas location that we use. I'll have to peek over the back fence. Don't worry the drool will wash off. :lol:


----------



## scoobeb

Remember Daisy Cutter,it's more than likely not cabela's fault. I'm sure they are doing their best to get you up and running. Sometimes places like yamaha experience bad back orders so it's a whole process. Hey,you waited this long and they gave you a $500 discount which imo is awesome and most places wouldn't give u anything . I guarantee your wait will be well worth it my friend. Your going to like that boat a ton. I love the red,it's sweet. That yamaha should move that nicely along even with 3 or 4 people in it. Remember also this is a brand new outboard that just came out so you have to expect delays,it happens to everyone including me and believe me I know it's frustrating. I'm sure cabela's is only telling you what yamaha is telling them so it's not cabela's fault,they only go by what like I said yamaha is telling them. You should have it within the next few weeks to a couple months at the most I would guess. If I were you I would call yamaha and ask them what is going on and why it's taking so long because they are the ones cabela's is waiting on. Also tell yamaha not to blow smoke up your butt and tell them to be truthful on the length of time it's going to take before the parts get shipped to cabela's. $500 you can get a nice trolling motor for that boat and a fish finder or all kinds of nice extras. I can't wait on your review of the Yamaha when you get it because I'm thinking either that or the suzuki will be my next outboard. I'm in love with 126lbs ,that is insane light for a 25hp. My 25hp 2 stroke merc was at 115lbs so for a 4 stroke to be only 11 lbs more they have finally got it right. Also the suzuki is only 136lbs but it's a 3 cylinder on top of it to so you can't beat that. Ok,can't wait to hear you go nuts after using it. I just have a feeling your gonna love that engine .


----------



## WALI4VR

Go get that Lund... In the long run you will be much happier. 

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


----------



## scoobeb

Still no word yet???????


----------



## DaisyCutter

The Cabela's sales guy asked his Yamaha rep again, and I'm still waiting for a response.

Cabela's got their money on December 23rd.

Alumacraft didn't ship the boat until April 28th, which is when Cabela's ordered the motor.

Had Cabela's ordered the motor when they got the money, then I'd be on the lake today.

The delay now is Yamaha's 'fault', but only because Cabela's waited until the last minute to place the order.


----------



## Florida_Native

That sucks man, cabelas should of given you some money back. Just imagine if you had invested that 10 grand or so for 7 months haha. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## scoobeb

Ok,at this point imo I would tell them to screw off and get your money back and get another boat similar with a different engine. I know you want the Yamaha but I would just get a suzuki or even a new etec or even the new tohatsu with the new gear ratio looks very promising. If you have that option I would run away as far as you can from that cabela's if again you have that option. Imo they are just not putting enough effort into getting this deal done for you . They seem to be just nonchalant about the whole situation and that would piss me off to the point of threatening with a lawyer if they won't give you your money back. They told you a date and another,then another,etc....and none have come through which is a void contract in my eyes. I know some may say you waited this long what is another month or 3 but at this point it may be much longer than they are telling you. It doesn't take that long to get stuff from yamaha if it was an urgent order. I'm sorry but I would demand my money back today if I were you or you can just wait it out and hope for the best. 6 months is insanely rediculous imo and still no resolution yet.


----------



## DaisyCutter

I got the run around from the Cabela's store manager and a boat sales guy. My specific salesman, Davis Hart, was 'busy'. I told them to have Davis call me. Today I'maling the ultimatum, boat or refund. 

I deliberately acted in December to ensure I had a boat this summer. Summer is half over now, and I have no boat. 

They never initiate contact, and when I do I get told to wait.


----------



## Zum

Feel for ya man... just be happy if you go another route


----------



## LDUBS

This is so poorly done by Cabelas that it is insane. Are they on the ropes? I wonder if the BPS deal is falling through. 

Whatever direction you decide to go, I hope it works out for you without too much more delay.


----------



## scoobeb

DaisyCutter said:


> I got the run around from the Cabela's store manager and a boat sales guy. My specific salesman, Davis Hart, was 'busy'. I told them to have Davis call me. Today I'maling the ultimatum, boat or refund.
> 
> I deliberately acted in December to ensure I had a boat this summer. Summer is half over now, and I have no boat.
> 
> They never initiate contact, and when I do I get told to wait.



I don't blame you one bit.You have had more patience then i would of had.I would of went down their to raise hell to give me my boat or give me a refund check on the spot.


----------



## DaisyCutter

I was told July now. According to Cabelas, Yamaha grossly underestimated demand for the tiller option on the 25, and this is a national issue.

I'm trying to decide between picking up the boat and trolling motor, without the outboard, or just get a refund and a whole different boat. I could almost wait for a 2018 now.


----------



## tomme boy

Tell them to give you a Merc


----------



## scoobeb

Get the boat and get the suzuki,trust me you won't be disappointed with the 3 cylinder suzuki,it's only 10 lbs more and you can oder one for $3200 on cumberlandwatersports.com unless you want electric start and ptt. I guess also you waited this long and July is around the corner. You waited this long,I know you really want that Yamaha. It looks like a sweet outboard for sure. YouTube has a bunch of videos on it now and it seems like a winner.


----------



## DaisyCutter

I took the trout slayer home today. It is 6 months EXACTLY from the day I ordered it on December 23rd. There is still no Yamaha 25 on the transom, just the Traxxis 55# electric Minn Kota. I started bolting on seats today. 

Hopefully the tiller controls will be here soon...

Hey, cool deal, I can stand up underneath the bimini without hunching, and I'm 6'1" tall. I'm loving it.

I'm also hoping the Yamaha 25 will be worth the wait. BTW, I looked at the itemized receipt, I paid $4600 plus tax for the Yamaha 25, 20" shaft, tiller with elec start and power tilt/trim and VTS. That is including the $500 PITA discount.


----------



## Zum

Not sure how big a body of water you fish but I bet 80% of my time on the water Im using the electric. Might suck for a bit longer without an outboard to get you to spots. To bad you don't own or know someone that has even a 6/9.9hp to loan/rent for a bit.


----------



## jasper60103

I think you will appreciate the split seat with open floor, nice layout.


----------



## LDUBS

"Trout Slayer" -- good name. You have a nice looking set up. Going to look great out on the water.


----------



## Stumpalump

Pick a lake and time and I'll bring my long shaft 6 hp. 4 ate O two 992795.


----------



## Stumpalump

I bought two nice 2 hp Johnson's in Prescott yesterday off Craigslist for the price of one. Real nice guy that also loves tin boats. He had the cleanest merc 4.5 I've ever seen. I hate mercs with a passion but this was one of the solid simple ones. I told him upfront I don't need a long shaft but it was so clean that I asked for a "tour". It's nice. My offer stands that you can use the Yamaha but you may want a 9.9 or less to fish all of the restricted lakes in AZ. If so this clean old merc is worth the drive up the hill. I would have bought it if it was a shorty. I'll be at lake pleasant tomorrow in the heat if you want me to throw the 6 hp in the truck if not hit me up anytime and you can use it. I'd just prefer you not take it home. Its like new and so is this https://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/bpo/6188618754.html


----------



## scoobeb

DaisyCutter said:


> I took the trout slayer home today. It is 6 months EXACTLY from the day I ordered it on December 23rd. There is still no Yamaha 25 on the transom, just the Traxxis 55# electric Minn Kota. I started bolting on seats today.
> 
> Hopefully the tiller controls will be here soon...
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, cool deal, I can stand up underneath the bimini without hunching, and I'm 6'1" tall. I'm loving it.
> 
> I'm also hoping the Yamaha 25 will be worth the wait. BTW, I looked at the itemized receipt, I paid $4600 plus tax for the Yamaha 25, 20" shaft, tiller with elec start and power tilt/trim and VTS. That is including the $500 PITA discount.




Wow,that is extremely pricey considering a brand new 25hp suzuki with exactly the same features except the trolling feature would be less than $4k delivered to your door. So with tax you paid near $5k. That imo is way to expensive but if that is what you want and you plan on keeping it for many yrs you could call it an investment.


----------



## Florida_Native

scoobeb said:


> DaisyCutter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I took the trout slayer home today. It is 6 months EXACTLY from the day I ordered it on December 23rd. There is still no Yamaha 25 on the transom, just the Traxxis 55# electric Minn Kota. I started bolting on seats today.
> 
> Hopefully the tiller controls will be here soon...
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, cool deal, I can stand up underneath the bimini without hunching, and I'm 6'1" tall. I'm loving it.
> 
> I'm also hoping the Yamaha 25 will be worth the wait. BTW, I looked at the itemized receipt, I paid $4600 plus tax for the Yamaha 25, 20" shaft, tiller with elec start and power tilt/trim and VTS. That is including the $500 PITA discount.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow,that is extremely pricey considering a brand new 25hp suzuki with exactly the same features except the trolling feature would be less than $4k delivered to your door. So with tax you paid near $5k. That imo is way to expensive but if that is what you want and you plan on keeping it for many yrs you could call it an investment.
Click to expand...


Suzuki is not comparable to Yamaha lol. You will pay much more for a Yamaha because it is a far better motor. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Stumpalump

Sometimes only the best will do so you drop the coin. He will never second guess having the sweetest tin with the best motor. That's a good feeling and will personally say that will be the boat on this site I wish I had. Sometimes the best is just the best bargain. I bought 3 motors on Friday for $265. Sold the 2 hp Evinrude with a broken prop yesterday for $175 and this morning got $300 for a 1969 Evinrude 4. The third motor is a keeper. 1980 Johnson 2hp. Always wanted one and this one is a peach! It will be my backup for remote places in the winter and I plan on using a trawler one day so it will power the dingy. Free motor plus $185 after gas and lunch for profit. Now that is a nice motor! In reality it's a tiny 2hp 25 pound thingy that I hope I never need. The effort vs profit is chump change but it's still sweet to get a deal once in a while. So what's better, having the best or getting the best deal? Idk


----------



## turbotodd

Florida_Native said:


> scoobeb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DaisyCutter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I took the trout slayer home today. It is 6 months EXACTLY from the day I ordered it on December 23rd. There is still no Yamaha 25 on the transom, just the Traxxis 55# electric Minn Kota. I started bolting on seats today.
> 
> Hopefully the tiller controls will be here soon...
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, cool deal, I can stand up underneath the bimini without hunching, and I'm 6'1" tall. I'm loving it.
> 
> I'm also hoping the Yamaha 25 will be worth the wait. BTW, I looked at the itemized receipt, I paid $4600 plus tax for the Yamaha 25, 20" shaft, tiller with elec start and power tilt/trim and VTS. That is including the $500 PITA discount.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow,that is extremely pricey considering a brand new 25hp suzuki with exactly the same features except the trolling feature would be less than $4k delivered to your door. So with tax you paid near $5k. That imo is way to expensive but if that is what you want and you plan on keeping it for many yrs you could call it an investment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Suzuki is not comparable to Yamaha lol. You will pay much more for a Yamaha because it is a far better motor.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


Agreed, having run the old Yamaha (181 lbs) vs the new suzuki. I wasn't that impressed with the suzuki. They ran within a half mph of each other on the exact same hull. Only thing I liked more about it was that it's 3 cylinder and a tiny bit smoother, but I really had greater expectations. 

Part of the "high" price of the motor is that it's a tiller with power tilt. Typically Yamaha has not sold a dedicated tiller steer with PT&T, so the dealer has to order it as a remote motor and then install a separate tiller kit, which is something like $700 or so on top of the cost of the motor itself. I don't know on the new ones, I assume it's the same, but it was definitely that way with the older ones. I've done a ton of them, those and the F40 jet's.


----------



## scoobeb

Everyone has their opinions and I respect yours but I disagree and I love yamaha to but suzuki has much better technology on their portable outboards then any other brand,they came out with the first efi 20hp and all the others are way behind and all outboard manufacturers as in etec,merc,tohatsu, yamaha,honda, and suzuki are all good and built to last. They are all equal. All the engine parts comes from the same place ,Japan so there is really no good or bad brand of outboard,it comes down to features,price and brand loyalty. Yamaha is so over priced and not because it's better,it's because they know people will still pay because of brand loyalty so they can make any price they want and people will pay. My 25hp merc I had smoked any 25hp yamaha in speed but I still like the Yamaha design better on their 2 strokes. Yamaha finally came out with this new 25hp because who wants to buy a 180 lb 25hp,that was just insane so it had to be redesigned because of weight and lack of efi. I would buy the Yamaha 25hp efi tiller manual start just because of price and that is the only reason,the suzuki and yamaha are equally as good imo. I can get a new 25hp yamaha for $3100,I don't need all the fancy stuff just the basics.


----------



## scoobeb

It all boils down to their really isn't a motor better than another motor,it all boils down to brand loyalty as I mentioned earlier because if you take care of any major brand of outboard it will run flawlessly. It all comes down to how well each individual takes care of their motors. I love yamaha, suzuki,mercury and tohatsu, those are my favorite brands. I have owned all 4 and they have all run awesome and flawlessly. I'm also a maintenance freak,lol. After a day on the saltwater I clean my outboard very thoroughly inside and out,then I have a full outboard cover I got off Amazon I use to make sure she stays pretty,lol. When I upgrade to a 25hp it will more than likely be a new 25hp efi yamaha tiller manual start or if I can find a new 25hp suzuki cheaper I will go with that. All depends on price because imo quality is equal all the way around.


----------



## tomme boy

Evinrude had a 15hp etec so NO Suzuki was NOT first in the small efi motors.


----------



## Florida_Native

True anything maintained properly will last. 

Not to argue with you but I think it's kinda crazy now that with an efi 25hp if something goes wrong it has to be diagnosed with a shop computer. And all those efis are set by EPA regulations 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tomme boy

Unless you know someone that can hack the ECM and reprogram it. I had my 175EFI flashed and reprogramed with the 200hp program and gained 4mph. Went from 72 to 76mph. Could have gained a little more if I would have put in the 200hp exhaust tuner. 

The Merc 135 EFI had a restrictor over the throttle body. Same programing as the 150. 175 had different programing. 200 had program and exhaust tuner.


----------



## scoobeb

tomme boy said:


> Evinrude had a 15hp etec so NO Suzuki was NOT first in the small efi motors.


The 15 etec is a 25hp detuned,also the 15hp etec is for trolling mostly as a kicker only that I've seen,I haven't seen any used as a primary outboard as the 20hp suzuki is used for. The suzuki is a true 20hp efi. One is dfi and efi also. Same concept but still different in their own way.


----------



## Florida_Native

tomme boy said:


> Unless you know someone that can hack the ECM and reprogram it. I had my 175EFI flashed and reprogramed with the 200hp program and gained 4mph. Went from 72 to 76mph. Could have gained a little more if I would have put in the 200hp exhaust tuner.
> 
> The Merc 135 EFI had a restrictor over the throttle body. Same programing as the 150. 175 had different programing. 200 had program and exhaust tuner.



Well idk but I don't think many people know people who can hack an ECM lol. And if it's a newer motor I'm almost certain it would void any kind of warranty you had. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## turbotodd

tomme boy said:


> Evinrude had a 15hp etec so NO Suzuki was NOT first in the small efi motors.




That ETEC 15 is a total waste of resources, IMO. 181 lbs; and only 15hp. 3 lbs lighter than the big ol' heavy Yamaha F25B. Explains why we never see any out here. Only 15's I see are Yamaha and Tohatsu/Nissan/Mercury, in that order. Yamaha outsells them in this area by about 2:1, in the 15hp market and for many reasons. Almost everyone I talked to who bought a Tohatsu/Merc/Nissan or suzuki bought it because it was cheap and for no other reason, with quite a few saying they preferred the Yamaha but couldn't afford the extra $200 or so. Understandable. But now that Yamaha is changing up their smaller motors, and dealers are dumping the prior carburetor models at sale prices, it makes no sense to spend more on a Tohatsu than a Yamaha; unless the buyer is really "that" brand loyal. 

Am I brand loyal? Somewhat, but I'll buy what I like whatever brand it is. I prefer a Ford pickup for many reasons but if GM had not taken my taxpayer money to bail them out, I might have considered a GM truck. Or if they didn't burn oil like a lot of the 4.8/5.3 models do. It was my understanding that they increased the oil pan capacity because the previous pan only held what? 6 quarts? And in the "normal" 7500 mile oil change interval, if you didn't check it, it would be OUT, thus the larger oil pans on the newer 5.3's. 2 of my coworkers have them and they say exactly the same things about them; not to mention those who I don't personally know and gripe about 'em. I'm sorry, but you have to be crazy loyal to the truck to put up with that much oil usage. Makes me wonder how the EPA treats it. Like a 2 stroke maybe? Both of my ford's have over 200,000 and don't use a single drop; one is 366,000 miles and just an old 2.3 4 cylinder which still knocks down 41 mpg. That reminds me, it's time for a timing belt. Better go get that ordered.


----------



## tomme boy

Guy here has one of the 15 etec's. It flat out hauls a**! For a 15. It is a 15HO so they are the same exact motor as the 25 and 30 but detuned in the computer. 

Speaking of detuned, neighbor has a Mega 25! If you know what that is! I keep trying to buy it off him but he just keeps laughing at me.


----------



## scoobeb

Tohatsu is coming out this fall with the new 9.9,15/20hp efi models,I can't wait to see the specs on that. I will tell you,I just ran my 20hp suzuki on my 1648 alumacraft with near 800lbs of weight and I hit 28.2mph which shocked the crap our of me. An older guy was fishing on the lake I was testing my boat on and he said holy crap that thing flies. The plane time is just as fast as my 25hp 2 stroke merc was if you can belive that. I actually raced a guy with basically the same boat with a 25hp 2 stroke merc and stayed with him all the way across the lake which again shocked my socks off,lol. I'm just so pleased with this new 20hp suzuki, it runs like a sewing machine and has incredible deceptive power.


Yes,I know what the mega 25hp is. A detuned 40hp I do belive. I believe if I'm not mistaken suzuki and tohatsu had one back in the day.


----------



## scoobeb

I just sold my 1993 merc 25hp 2 stroke and I have bought and sold 20 of them or more but never had a 93 which is a different powerhead then the 94 and up. 93 is the nikasil powerhead and the 05 I had was the mercosil powerhead. My 93 merc was by far the most powerful 25hp merc I have ever ran. With over 1000lbs in my 1648 and a 14 pitch prop I was around 33-34mph which is insane for a true 25hp. It just ate gas and was older so I sold it for near $2k and only paid $2450 for a brand new 20hp suzuki which imo is well worth every penny.


----------



## tomme boy

The powerhead is the same. The material in the bore lining is different. Otherwise they are the exact same motor


----------



## scoobeb

The mercosil powerhead is more prone to blowing according to research so while most of the engines are near identical there is some differences. If you put a 93 and say 95 side by side there is some different components under the cowling. I've never had another merc with the power of this one and it was actually a 20hp and I put a new 25hp carb on it. The last merc 25hp I had on my alumacraft with the same weight pushed me 30ish with a 14 pitch prop, the 93 like I said pushed me 33-34mph. This motor just created so much more power and I don't know why. 1 out of 20 possessed this extra power but they were all great running engines. I love the 25hp 2 stroke yamahas a great deal but my merc ate them for lunch.


----------



## tomme boy

Not a 3cyl 25 Yamaha, Suzuki, or Tohatsu. Those Merc are good motors but not that good. That motor would have had to be putting out over 35hp to reach that speed. It is just not going to happen. Unless you had it on a 14' boat that was made out of 0.072" or lighter alum and you weighed less than 100lbs.


----------



## Florida_Native

Somebody from another group I follow got the new Yamaha 25. It's on a 1448 says it does about 35 empty and 28-30 with people and gear. Said it has a lot of torque and well worth the money. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Fadec

scoobeb said:


> Tohatsu is coming out this fall with the new 9.9,15/20hp efi models,I can't wait to see the specs on that. I will tell you,I just ran my 20hp suzuki on my 1648 alumacraft with near 800lbs of weight and I hit 28.2mph which shocked the crap our of me. An older guy was fishing on the lake I was testing my boat on and he said holy crap that thing flies. The plane time is just as fast as my 25hp 2 stroke merc was if you can belive that. I actually raced a guy with basically the same boat with a 25hp 2 stroke merc and stayed with him all the way across the lake which again shocked my socks off,lol. I'm just so pleased with this new 20hp suzuki, it runs like a sewing machine and has incredible deceptive power.
> 
> 
> Yes,I know what the mega 25hp is. A detuned 40hp I do belive. I believe if I'm not mistaken suzuki and tohatsu had one back in the day.



I would love to see the Tohatsu 9.9 EFI! Although, it would have to be quite a bit lighter for me to consider replacing my 2006 Mercury 9.9. That little merc./tohatsu has performed excellent. My only gripe is I wish it had an oil filter like the Honda 9.9.


----------



## scoobeb

tomme boy said:


> Not a 3cyl 25 Yamaha, Suzuki, or Tohatsu. Those Merc are good motors but not that good. That motor would have had to be putting out over 35hp to reach that speed. It is just not going to happen. Unless you had it on a 14' boat that was made out of 0.072" or lighter alum and you weighed less than 100lbs.


 I'm not going to argue with you,4 gps devices can't be wrong. I got 33-34mph with a 14 pitch prop with just me in the boat. It is 100% possible because it happened just like I hit 28.2 mph with my 20hp suzuki. Sometimes things are unexplainable and I had a Witness with me,my buddy. I guess he must of fixed the gps to show a higher speed than I was going,come on,what do I gain from lying,nothing. It is what it is,if you don't believe it than that is your opinion but numbers and I don't lie. My 2 cylinder merc smoked any 2 cylinder on the water,a 3 cylinder is a different animal and I never mentioned 3 cylinder engines. I said mercs and yamaha,common sense would tell you I was talking about the 2 cylinder engine,not 3. All I do is buy and sell any and every brand of engine up to 25hp and I test all of them and the average speed for 25hp 2 stroke mercs in the 2 cylinder form on an aluminum boat is usually upper,upper 20s to the low and mid 30s. Tons of aluminum boats on YouTube doing well over 30mph with a 25hp 2 cylinder engine. Again I was pushing a 14 pitch prop not a small 11 pitch prop so it was a huge difference in pitch. With a full load ,a hair over 1000 lbs of toal weight in the boat we(2 of us)did near 32mph. Don't you think these numbers suprised me as well,that is why I verified with 3 other gps devices. The chances of 4 gps devices being wrong is around 0%. When I go out this week coming I will try to video my gps if I can while driving the boat . Like I said the 28.2mph was only for a minute or so,my average speed was 26-27mph with me and 100lbs in the front for porpoising purposes.

I have run jon boats my whole life so far,say 30 yrs or so and the wider the boat usually planes much easier and can get amazing speeds. The boat is only 310lbs. I know what all 4 gps devices said and it's accurate whether anyone believes it or not is irrelevant to me and I can care less. Numbers don't lie,plain and simple.


----------



## DaisyCutter

The new date, for the Yamaha 25 with the tiller and tiller controls is August 3rd. We shall see.

For now I'm floating with the trolling motor.


----------



## scoobeb

Lol. Hey that trolling motor maybe all you need. Have you looked at anything else and I'm not talking the suzuki, how about a 25-30hp etec. They are freaken sweet outboards to. If I had the extra money to blow that is what would be on the back of my boat 100% because it's simple and now comes with a 10yrs warranty, can't beat that. I just look at the cost difference between all the 25hp 4 strokes and again suzuki wins hands down. I was looking into the Yamaha until I called the place here in fl,he tells me well after tax,ok no problem,then a $80 pdi,I said are you joking me,then they wanted like $15 to put oil in,I said I can do my own oil thank you very much, so after this and that and this,blah,blah,blah,it went from $3110 to over $3600,it said forget it,it can get a brand new 25AS Delivered to my door for $3000 and no cost pdi,no tax and no shipping. I told him they are rediculous for charging that to people, I told the guy they rigorously check them before being crated and I told him what are you going to do,pull it from the box,put oil in it and crank it over to make sure it starts,he said yep,I said that will be $80 please for cranking it over,I told him your insane,keep your yamaha. Hell, $3600,for $200 more I may as well buy a etec. These places are scammers trying to squeeze out every penny they can get. I told them to keep his outboards,lol, I will stick to suzuki for price and quality.


----------



## scoobeb

Just for me,I can't and won't find a better deal at near $3k and a full 6yr warranty for a 25hp efi engine. I'm no frills to,no need for electric start or power t+t and all the trolling stuff ,it's a waste for me in general, as long as my engine starts and I can maually tilt or trim it out physically with no issues that is where I stay until I start getting older and would like a new electric start and power t +t. I'm good to go now. People don't realize just how easy these new efi outboards start now by pull rope. No more bleeding hands,etc.... One good pull or 2 at the most and she will turn over no problem.


----------



## Zum

When I look for info on certain things on forums, it's a real pisser when they go way off topic...
Start a new thread, hope the guy that started this one is getting on the water.


----------



## Stumpalump

Zum said:


> When I look for info on certain things on forums, it's a real pisser when they go way off topic...
> Start a new thread, hope the guy that started this one is getting on the water.



Reminds me when I built a Jeep 20 years ago and posted on a jeep forum. Plenty of people telling me why I was dumb to spend the money on certain stuff. Build a jeep today and you will find the same proper spring rates and valving on today's builds that I was an idiot for using then. I ran low stiff suspension and valving that matched then trimmed fenders to clear tires. 8" Skyjacker was the norm and all I was doing was hacking up a jeep. Sand rail forum is same same. I run spring rates that I came up with for a 1600 lbs car and that is stiffer than most use on 2600 lbs cars. Guess who gets spanked? Rokon motorcycles and my fast engines that I sold were ridiculed. Today those same dorks sell my carb and hop up Harbor freight junk to slap in them. My bet is the daisy with the Yamaha bought the right engine but let's continue to basically tell him he spent way too much for a slow POS because this is the Internet and that's what your supposed to do.


----------



## turbotodd

Somebody mentioned ETEC. Screw ETEC and their 2 stroke. 

Was at the river this morning, bright and early. Catching fish before anyone even bothered getting out of bed. Anyway, by 8am they were coming out of the woodwork, so to speak. I'd already limited out many times over but anyway, a bunch of guides were coming out. Most are Shawnees with 40/30 Yamaha jet and a few 50/35 Honda's. Very few mercury's. ONE was an ETEC jet. I was fishing near the ramp and the ETEC launched, he fired the engine and I could hear it plain as day. His customers hopped in and off they went downriver, probably to the famous shoal that I know of, only accessible by jet and/or canoe (or drag a prop driven boat over it, though it's really too swift for wading). Anyway, most of us are in the low to mid 20's for speeds on that river; anything bigger/faster really isn't designed for the shallows. So this guy with the ETEC takes off, full throttle, and I heard it for over 10 minutes straight, so what? 5 miles or so? Man that thing was noisy. 

Anyway I continued to drift with the current down river to the first shoal, about 2 1/2 miles down from the ramp. Wore 'em out too. Got to the 2nd shoal and I heard what I thought was a motor running out of the water. It was a little foggy so I couldn't see real far, 1000 feet maybe? The motor sounded horrible, running very rough, I figured it might have been someone running one on muffs up at the boat repair shop. Nope. Shawnee with an ETEC appears through the fog. They get up to me and asked if I knew anything about motors. ETEC? No, what's going on? He says it has real low power, runs extremely rough, using a ton of fuel. I don't know. I'm not an ETEC guru, told the man, if it were a Yamaha I could tell ya, but I know nothing of them. I asked if they needed a tow, and sure enough, the thing didn't have enough power to pull it across the first shoal which is a narrower part of the river, and shallow, so I had to hook a rope and pull as best I could. Drug bottom a little, but they made it back to the ramp. I made sure to stay close just in case they needed another tow or whatever. Get to the ramp and they loaded up, said it used a little over 1/2 of the 6 gal tank of fuel, and then said he was headed for the dealer. Customers not happy. I recognized one of them as the brother of an old girlfriend, and I offered to take him along since I had an empty seat. He politely declined, and I was done for the day; and loaded up & went home.

I sure want to know what's going on with that ETEC. Maybe an injector or high pressure pump issue? Don't know. I reckon it could also be a sensor, or a dead cylinder or something. 2 things I know. Don't put a jet foot on it (noisier than any motor I've ever heard) and I question the reliability. Sure can't work on it at the water, well, unless you know your ETEC's. I don't and I admit it.

I did get the opportunity to run one at a demo, and honestly wasn't that impressed with it, for what it costs and it's weight, I can't see any advantage. Speaking specifically of the 25hp version, and this was in late Spring, 2016 when I was involved with it, maybe they've gotten a little better since then. I dunno. Also ran a suzuki prototype, both 20 and 25hp, and neither was all that great, about average, some things I liked others I didn't but overall, it wasn't any better than anything else I ran that day-including that old outdated Yamaha 20hp; and the big heavy 25hp. There was a prototype Yamaha there too, which was nothing like what is in production; it was a bad dude, but as I said, completely different than what is currently being offered. I actually think it was a lightened version of a 40 with derated horsepower based on how it sounded and ran. Then Merc had their offerings (Tohatsu's), and then the TLDI, which I kinda liked. But for what I do, which is a combination of things....hunt, fish, fish on lakes, and then in creeks, the old heavy and slow 4 stroke Yamaha will work just fine.

Lot of guys like them. I was on the fence, but after this deal, I'm off that fence now.


----------



## albitross

Hey folks, first time poster here. I searched up this post after getting off the water yesterday fairly frustrated and had to sign up. I just got my '17 F25LWTC. The motor itself was delivered in early March. Much like daisycutter, the tiller handle install kit wasn't available and I finally was able to get it together and on my boat this past Thursday. I'm very unimpressed so far. I've got 7 hours on it. I'm seriously hoping it's a fuel issue. [-o< 

I've got the motor bolted on an Alumacraft Escape 145. I'm seeing mid 23 mph barely going downriver and no umph whatsoever. It does physically sound better than the heavier '14 Yamaha 25 the dealer loaned me in May due to the protracted wait, but it isn't matching the performance I was seeing with the older motor. I didn't consider the '14 as being a performer and really was anticipating a better ride.

I need to do some errands and get a different tank with some new gas and will hit the water again this afternoon. The '14 motor was able to get me, my wife, two smalls and the dog up and running about 24mph. I was getting mid 27's alone, overly loaded with tackle and gear. The motor does look great. Also, the VTS on my motor only seems to have 5 rpm settings and not the 7 currently advertised?! I drove a new '17 Yamaha 75hp two weeks ago, that defiantly had more VTS adjustability.


----------



## gettinback

The Alumacraft Escape 145 might be a little underpowered with a 25hp with a base hull weight of 604lbs. Just a thought. The older Yamaha should have more torque with a bit more displacement and 3 cylinders. The less weight is what sets this motor apart.


----------



## DaisyCutter

I'm really curious to see what Albitross finds.

Could it be a prop issue since you're at the heavier end of the 25hp applications? Would a lower pitch prop make a difference on your boat with the 25?

I'm still waiting for my tiller controls.


----------



## scoobeb

That 25hp should do much better than 23mph imo. I still think the suzuki is the much more powerful motor and much cheaper. A 25hp should get that on plane with no issues. Alumacraft has the exact same boat with a 25hp 2 stroke that was doing high 20s in their performance bulletins but I can't find it anymore. They claim this motor has more grunt and wot speed than that engine then it should definitely get you mid 20s or better. Man,I wish I could find it. I would be very disappointed to with 23mph.


----------



## tomme boy

Might be built into the CPU why it feels slow. I thought I remember my Etec ran like a dog until it had X number of hours on it and it stopped limiting the RPM's. Yamaha 25 4 strokes have ALWAYS been under powered. So hopefully it is just the Programming.


----------



## scoobeb

I'm glad I went with the 20hp suzuki even know it will peak my interest on what a 25hp would do for my boat.


----------



## gettinback

I was talking to a guy on another forum and he estimated his boat to weigh approx. 800lbs and he's running the new F25 and says he's running in the upper 20s and lower 30s.


----------



## scoobeb

gettinback said:


> I was talking to a guy on another forum and he estimated his boat to weigh approx. 800lbs and he's running the new F25 and says he's running in the upper 20s and lower 30s.



That's what I'm saying, something just isn't right ,he should be getting more than 23mph. 25-26mph is at least respectable.


----------



## gettinback

Yeah just doesn't seem right. But I doubt he will be back to tell us his findings. I hate when people pop up and don't post any follow up. Maybe someone else will chime in on their experience with this motor. I will give a detailed report as soon as I get my boat but that won't be til sometime in September.


----------



## Stumpalump

https://roswell.craigslist.org/bod/d/2017-model-yamaha-f25seha/6253187052.html


----------



## scoobeb

Stumpalump said:


> https://roswell.craigslist.org/bod/d/2017-model-yamaha-f25seha/6253187052.html




That is for the carb model not the new efi model. The new efi model will be a 2018. Every august they start the next yr model yr.


----------



## gettinback

Bump


----------



## DaisyCutter

August 15 is my new ETA for the tiller controls parts.

Delayed for the umpteenth time.

I'm really really really not impressed.


----------



## gettinback

Wow really? I just went to my Yamaha dealer and bought one.


----------



## DaisyCutter

It might be that mine is power tilt & trim?


----------



## scoobeb

DaisyCutter said:


> August 15 is my new ETA for the tiller controls parts.
> 
> Delayed for the umpteenth time.
> 
> I'm really really really not impressed.



I can't believe how long this is taking for you,i surely hope after all this time waiting this engine is worth it. I have heard mixed reviews on it so far.Most say it's under powered for a 25hp but most say it's smooth as can be. I rather have a bit rough and a ton of power but that is just me.The more i read on this engine and see videos it makes me more and more thankful i bought my suzuki. I'm sure it will hold up being a yamaha but imo if it's a under powered engine it may only be good for flat bottom boats because they need very little to more them. Most new 20hp engines are near the 330-350 CCs area so this 25hp having such a small displacement could be the issue.I mean at 432 CCs it should have some get up and go but it is by far the lowest rated cc engine out of all the 25hp engines. Think about this,a 25hp etec is at 577 CCs and the yamaha is at 432CCs and it's only like a 20lb difference in weight. I know a etec would smoke a 25hp yamaha as well as most 25hp engines of today.This is why i like the 25hp suzuki so much,it has a 3rd cylinder and even weighs less than most 25hp 2 or 4 strokes.It has a healthy 489 CCs of displacement so it lacks in nothing imo. It's by far the best priced engine ($3000-$3200 shipped to my door and a full 6yr warranty) for the money and it has a stellar reputation. If i had money to throw around i would probably get a 25hp etec rope start.I found them on clearance in CT for a unreal price of $3559.That is a great price for a 2 stroke DFI engine imo.

I truly hope this yamaha works out for you since you've waited for near 9 months patiently.


----------



## gettinback

I chose the F25 first cause it's a Yamaha. Also because of the weight savings in a technical poling skiff 10lbs here and there add up. I also like the gear shift lever in the tiller handle make things easier when operating with an tiller extension. I havn't had a chance to run it yet but I can expect that it will run better than my first choice which was going to be the Suzuki 20hp. Hope I'm right. Oh yeah and it's a Yamaha.


----------



## tomme boy

I have owned them ALL. Suzuki I will NEVER buy again. Biggest POS I have ever owned. warrenty was a joke, trying to get fixed was a joke. Factory service team showed up and still could not fix issue. Failure to admit to casting flaws on lower unit. Oil leaking despite every oil seal being replaced. Couple of dead spots in the TPS. 

Yamaha has always been the goto motor for reliability. While the 25hp motor has always been underpowered compared to the others, it just keeps on running while the others are blown up. I am sure the motor will be fine for what you need it to do. 

And Scoobeb, we are all tired of hearing about your Suzuki. you have told the same stories over and over and over................................!!! Give us a break!


----------



## gettinback

I have heard mixed reviews on every motor on the market. Just talked to a guy on another forum who was having mixed feelings about going w/ the new Yamaha so he cancelled his order and went with the 25 Suzuki and 2hours in he's already having issues. So not sure which is best but Yamaha has a stellar reputation. I hope I'm not gonna be eating my words later. But I will always go with reliability over a few moths.


----------



## Lost Pole

tomme boy said:


> And Scoobeb, we are all tired of hearing about your Suzuki. you have told the same stories over and over and over................................!!! Give us a break!



I'm not a big poster here but I really enjoy learning everything everyone here has to offer. I started checking this thread with the new Yamaha motor interest. Was following the delays, but there's a constant Knock that I've read over and over and over. Not only in this thread, but others that were started by the knock, so I can avoid that. 
Sounds like there's someone trying to convince theirselves (and others) of something. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## scoobeb

tomme boy said:


> I have owned them ALL. Suzuki I will NEVER buy again. Biggest POS I have ever owned. warrenty was a joke, trying to get fixed was a joke. Factory service team showed up and still could not fix issue. Failure to admit to casting flaws on lower unit. Oil leaking despite every oil seal being replaced. Couple of dead spots in the TPS.
> 
> Yamaha has always been the goto motor for reliability. While the 25hp motor has always been underpowered compared to the others, it just keeps on running while the others are blown up. I am sure the motor will be fine for what you need it to do.
> 
> And Scoobeb, we are all tired of hearing about your Suzuki. you have told the same stories over and over and over................................!!! Give us a break!



First off this is my thread,if you don't like it stay out. 2nd if you think suzuki is a pos your clueless about outboards. Every manufacturer has their good and bad engines. Just because your engine had an issue doesn't mean all suzuki's are junk. So if you bought a Honda Accord one day and had issues that means honda sucks,you make no sense. 

2nd I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I think the Yamaha is a fine engine. I just prefer suzuki and I can voice my opinion when or where I want and like I said if you Don't like it then don't post in here. I'm not invading anyone's thread,I made it I will write what I please. 

So far you said etec is junk,suzuki is junk,that tells me you love yamaha which is your opinion but saying the other brands are junk is just simply not true. Again every manufacturer has their duds.

Yamaha is so great that's why this poor guy has been waiting almost a yr for his engine. Plus I simply made some suggestions to him,because he was contemplating not getting the whole package so I explained to him a suzuki 25hp would be a great engine for his boat. I don't like one brand over the other,I go by performance and reliability and most brands are reliable in today's economy. I just like the suzuki because I've ran it and it would probably do well on his heavier boat. 
I even said if I had the money a 25hp etec is the way I would go,I would take a 25hp DFI 2 stroke over Any 4 stroke imo.


----------



## scoobeb

I think the 25hp 2 stroke yamaha is one of the best engines ever built and if they still were available I would take one way over a suzuki,so how's that for trying to convince anyone of anything and that I'm supposably knocking the Yamaha brand. I love yamaha, I've owned several and have never had an issue with them. With today's engines since we have no other options new besides the 4 strokes or dfi engines it's a crap shoot as far as performance. I have never knocked yamaha,ever. I just again simply explained that since he's had issues getting his engine I threw out the suzuki and imo you get more motor for the money,how do you get I'm knocking yamaha out of that?


----------



## DaisyCutter

All the bigger displacement 25s are just detuned 30s.

A 250cc dirtbike is near 40hp. I'm not worried about the 432cc motor being smaller displacement. I didn't want to carry the weight of a 30hp for the performance of only a 25hp.

I'm driving back from San Diego right now. Of the fishing boats with outboards, almost all had Yamahas.

The parts I'm missing are in transit. 8/23 will be nine months of waiting.


----------



## turbotodd

A 250cc dirt bike is in fact near 40hp nowadays. But keep in mind that they also require rebuilds at around 10 hours use. Or at least that's the recommended interval. They make power but at around 12,000 RPM. An outboard motor running 12k RPM at full load for hours on end will not last. Not at all.

The 25hp 2 stroke yamaha.....which one are you talking about? twin carb? Single carb? 3 cylinder? 

I get to work on motors, specifically Yamaha. And I can tell you first hand experience that out of the thousands that are in this area, the ones I see most often, are 2 stroke motors. Now that could be due to more of them being out there or it could mean that they're broken more. I don't know. That's just what I see.

When the local duck hunting areas were 25hp maximum, I saw TONS of 3 cylinder yamaha's out there. Mostly because they'd pull a bigger prop and run a couple mph faster (stock) and then the modified ones would make a LOT more power and go faster. Those duck hunters were mostly boat racers. But there were a few 4 stroke 25's out there too, and of those guys and gals, they all said the same things. They never had to work on 'em unless they were doing something really stupid like beaching their rig at full speed or purposely jumping logs or whatever. 

Local river is lined with boat docks, a bunch of them have professional guide services. At those guide docks, you see one Merc and the rest are Yamaha's, mostly 4 stroke 40hp jets (40/30). On the river, you rarely see anything but Yamaha outboards. On the lake yesterday for the eclipse, I saw one mercury on a bass boat, and a few I/O powered runabouts, and most everything else was Yamaha. Not a single Honda or junkzuki to be seen anywhere. But there's only 2 'zuke dealers in the state, both of which are 100+ miles away from the 2 main areas that I am fishing. In my mind, if these things were so great, why are they not all over the place?? We go down to the Gulf every year and there are bigger rigs everywhere. Rarely do I see anything but 250hp+ Yamaha's. This last spring I spotted a rig with THREE 400hp Mercury's but I assume it was only because Merc is the only 400hp outboard out there. Or does BRP have one now too? We don't see that stuff around here, too far inland, and no boats big enough to require that much motor.


----------



## Stumpalump

turbotodd said:


> A 250cc dirt bike is in fact near 40hp nowadays. But keep in mind that they also require rebuilds at around 10 hours use. Or at least that's the recommended interval. They make power but at around 12,000 RPM. An outboard motor running 12k RPM at full load for hours on end will not last. Not at all.
> 
> The 25hp 2 stroke yamaha.....which one are you talking about? twin carb? Single carb? 3 cylinder?
> 
> I get to work on motors, specifically Yamaha. And I can tell you first hand experience that out of the thousands that are in this area, the ones I see most often, are 2 stroke motors. Now that could be due to more of them being out there or it could mean that they're broken more. I don't know. That's just what I see.
> 
> When the local duck hunting areas were 25hp maximum, I saw TONS of 3 cylinder yamaha's out there. Mostly because they'd pull a bigger prop and run a couple mph faster (stock) and then the modified ones would make a LOT more power and go faster. Those duck hunters were mostly boat racers. But there were a few 4 stroke 25's out there too, and of those guys and gals, they all said the same things. They never had to work on 'em unless they were doing something really stupid like beaching their rig at full speed or purposely jumping logs or whatever.
> 
> Local river is lined with boat docks, a bunch of them have professional guide services. At those guide docks, you see one Merc and the rest are Yamaha's, mostly 4 stroke 40hp jets (40/30). On the river, you rarely see anything but Yamaha outboards. On the lake yesterday for the eclipse, I saw one mercury on a bass boat, and a few I/O powered runabouts, and most everything else was Yamaha. Not a single Honda or junkzuki to be seen anywhere. But there's only 2 'zuke dealers in the state, both of which are 100+ miles away from the 2 main areas that I am fishing. In my mind, if these things were so great, why are they not all over the place?? We go down to the Gulf every year and there are bigger rigs everywhere. Rarely do I see anything but 250hp+ Yamaha's. This last spring I spotted a rig with THREE 400hp Mercury's but I assume it was only because Merc is the only 400hp outboard out there. Or does BRP have one now too? We don't see that stuff around here, too far inland, and no boats big enough to require that much motor.



They de tune those race bike motors a smidge for quads and they last forever. Ring it's neck out for 15 motos on the rev limiter and 10 hours sounds right. The Hondas ect have the same 10 hour spec. Feeding a 25hp version ice cold water should last 1000's of hours. That motor will be bitchin!


----------



## scoobeb

Everyone has their own opinions of what's the best,etc.. I'm not one to pick one brand over another. I just like the 25hp 4 stroke suzuki, especially for the price. If you want to know my favorite engines in the 25hp range it's hands down the early 90s 25hp 2 stroke merc, then the double carb 25hp 2 stroke yamaha. I like how light they are and powerful. Now in the 4 stroke department I love the 25hp 4 stroke suzuki because I've had one and it ran awesome. I love tohatsu to,they make a crap load of outboards for them of course, merc and used to be nissan up to 30hp,evinrude 4 strokes up to 15hp. I don't have any particular brand I like better than others it all comes down to features imo. If I go 25hp 4 stroke, it will be the suzuki, if I have the money I will go 25hp etec DFI for a 2 stroke. 

Everyone again has their own favorite engine and brand.


----------



## scoobeb

I live on the Gulf as well and I agree 90% of the outboards on the water is dominated by Yamaha and Mercury hands down. Then comes every other brand mixed. So if that is the case that would explain more yamahas and mercs being in the shop more than any other brand. 

You may laugh but the best engine I've ever owned was a 2001 9.9hp 2 stroke tohatsu. Back in 2001 I knew nothing about engines,I was just learning about engines and all I knew was 50:1 gas and go. I ran that thing well over 1000 hrs in say 7yrs,never did a thing to it,not because I didn't want to I just wasn't maintenance smart. All I did was flush the saltwater out and clean the engine after every use and lube the whole engine with walmart super tech lube. No impeller change,no spark plug change,no lower unit oil change and that engine ran flawlessly for 7yrs I had it and my buddy still has it I sold it to and runs as good as the day I bought it. What great engines tohatsu builds.


----------



## DaisyCutter

I ordered this boat on December 23rd. Now, finally... the motor is mounted.

https://youtu.be/w-b4nPzhHYA

Lake test this weekend.


----------



## Stumpalump

Wow! What a cool motor and you did a great job highlighting it's features. Can't you interface those small Yamahas with electronic fish finders and plotters to tell you the vitals? Are you going to tell us what prop, RPM and speed you are seeing? Now is the time to get Cabellas to give you the perfect pitch prop anyway. Congradulation!


----------



## DaisyCutter

There is a really cool wireless digital gauge called 'Command Link'. I may look into it it the price isn't absurd.

I did check the prop.


----------



## Stumpalump

Not sure you would want the speed and fuel consumption part of this but the tach portion alone is about half.

https://www.simyamaha.com/Command_Link_Single_Engine_Round_Gauge_Kit_p/6y8-0e83r-91-00.htm

It should run between 23 and 27 with that prop.


----------



## pbw

My boat has similar specs as yours and with my 4 stoke Yamaha 15hp and two adults I run 21 mph. Would love to see what that 25 could do on my tin.


----------



## Zum

Well that didn't take long....just kidding
I'm sure you will be happy, enjoy your fun.


----------



## hounddog

Very nice rig there! I bet it'll be worth the wait!


----------



## DaisyCutter

It was a busy holiday weekend at the lake, but I did get a chance to try out the Yamaha 25. We managed 27 mph on the GPS. I was hoping for more, but that was in chop, with 2 adults, and a bimini top. There was a fair amount of porpoising, so I will have to adjust the load a bit.

Overall I'm really happy.


----------



## jasper60103

Good to hear. Thanks for the update. 

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## scoobeb

DaisyCutter said:


> It was a busy holiday weekend at the lake, but I did get a chance to try out the Yamaha 25. We managed 27 mph on the GPS. I was hoping for more, but that was in chop, with 2 adults, and a bimini top. There was a fair amount of porpoising, so I will have to adjust the load a bit.
> 
> Overall I'm really happy.




That is a decent overall wot speed. Just food for thought, I understand this contradicts the manual but break that motor in hard while varying rpms if you want to seat the rings properly. You get one shot at it. If you baby it your motor will never run at full potential as far as power wise due to the rings not being seated correctly and it sounds like you want as much wot speed as you can get . Most important thing is always warm it up for a few minutes and your good to go. Good luck.


----------



## haute

DaisyCutter said:


> It was a busy holiday weekend at the lake, but I did get a chance to try out the Yamaha 25. We managed 27 mph on the GPS. I was hoping for more, but that was in chop, with 2 adults, and a bimini top. There was a fair amount of porpoising, so I will have to adjust the load a bit.
> 
> Overall I'm really happy.



Fwiw I have a 2016 Alumcraft V16-15 (b/c my old 15hp motor was a short shaft), and picked up a 2009 Yamaha 25 2-stroke (dual carbs).

With me, my wife, two young kids, and one or two of my kids' friends, gear, battery, and around 55lbs in fuel (1 x 6gal tank, 1 x 3 gal spare tank) I can hit almost 27mph on calm water with no head wind.

With a fully loaded boat, me, wife, two other adults, our two kids, food, gear, battery, gas, I can hit 23 mph, although it takes longer to plane out.

Both of those speeds are WOT.


At 1/2 throttle, I get 24(ish) and 21(ish) respectively, depending on waves and wind. I rarely run at WOT, as the extra gas just isnt worth the extra 2-3 mph. I use just under 3gal to run 25mi at that throttle position/speeds.


I have been considering ditching my cherry Yammie for either the Suzuki DF25A or the new Yammie F25, as I am getting sick of doing the 2 stroke oil dance, the noise, and the gas pigging, so I'm **_*really*_** interested to hear how the new one performs with your V16...

I was leaning toward the Suzuki and its three cylinder setup. I would imagine the torque band would develop at a lower range, but that's just supposition, but I love my Yamaha, and if I replace it, I'd probably drop the extra coin on the new gen F25...


----------



## Stumpalump

DaisyCutter said:


> It was a busy holiday weekend at the lake, but I did get a chance to try out the Yamaha 25. We managed 27 mph on the GPS. I was hoping for more, but that was in chop, with 2 adults, and a bimini top. There was a fair amount of porpoising, so I will have to adjust the load a bit.
> 
> Overall I'm really happy.



Most move weight foward to hold the bow down but that's wrong unless it also has a very hard time getting on plane. Proposing is an engine struggling to carry the bow. You want to carry the bow so try moving weight back to keep the bow up, not down.


----------



## gettinback

DaisyCutter said:


> It was a busy holiday weekend at the lake, but I did get a chance to try out the Yamaha 25. We managed 27 mph on the GPS. I was hoping for more, but that was in chop, with 2 adults, and a bimini top. There was a fair amount of porpoising, so I will have to adjust the load a bit.
> 
> Overall I'm really happy.



Did you try trimming your motor a little to alleviate the porpoising?


----------



## Zum

25 hp....27mph...16' boat with some extras and a person....I'd be happy


----------



## LDUBS

DaisyCutter said:


> It was a busy holiday weekend at the lake, but I did get a chance to try out the Yamaha 25. We managed 27 mph on the GPS. I was hoping for more, but that was in chop, with 2 adults, and a bimini top. There was a fair amount of porpoising, so I will have to adjust the load a bit.
> 
> Overall I'm really happy.



That is a lot better than I can get out of my 25 4-stroke on my 15' Klamath. My best in ideal conditions with just me in the boat is 26.3 MPH (GPS). I would be very happy with your results! Congrats and I'm glad the long wait is finally over.


----------



## water bouy

Hmm. Are they going to upsize this one to 30 or 35 hp?


----------



## water bouy

Yes you can buy a 30 hp in Australia.


----------



## erictetterton

Has anyone tried a stainless prop on their motor yet? Which one and what kind of numbers are you seeing (rpm)? I’m looking at trying one on my F25 w/ 1448 Alweld


----------



## Brian121804

I decided to take advantage of Yamaha's fall incentive.

Put an F25 short shaft, tiller, electric start (F25SWHC)
on the stern of my old Mirrocraft. Sadly power trim isn't
available on the short shaft.

The one thing I dislike thus far is the placement of the
start button (see last pic). Mine is on the front of the motor,
behind the tiller bracket, seems rather clumsy. I was expecting
a switch on the side of the tiller, as I had seen on some 
youtube videos.

It's gonna kill me to not get it wet until spring.


----------



## jasper60103

Congrats!
I'm sure you will enjoy next Spring though.


----------



## Brian121804

Yeah, until then I'll just have to be happy sitting in it every once in a while,
making motor boat noises like a little kid.

Just waiting on a 10 micron filter & tachometer to finish the install.
Dealer wasn't sure which wire harness is required for the tiller / tach combination.
Getting the analog 6y7 tach. That command link stuff is cool, but crazy expensive.


----------



## turbotodd

kdgrills said:


> Yeah, until then I'll just have to be happy sitting in it every once in a while,
> making motor boat noises like a little kid.




Reminds me.

Used to work for a motorcycle dealer. The bikes came in big crates, partially disassembled so they fit inside the crate. Myself and a younger guy were the assembly guys, and we worked for a boss that was odd, the type that would chew you out something fierce for a small issue-in other words make mountains out of mole hills. Anyway, my coworker was doing an assembly on a sport bike, 600cc as I recall. I was just coming back in from lunch and the boss came out from behind the desk to inspect our work. He follows me back to the assembly area. We walked through the door way and my coworker was sitting on the freshly assembled bike, crouched down behind the windshield making crotch rocket noises. The boss and I looked at each other and watched him a good 2 minutes, both smiling. About that time my coworker turns around as if he was "in the lead"-still making crotch rocket noises-and sees the boss any myself. The look on his face was priceless. If that wasn't good enough, the boss asks him "did you win?" I about fell over.


----------



## solrac

This is my first post on TinBoats. Came across this thread and read all 13 pages. Good points overall. I had my heart set on a Suzuki 20hp then considered the 25hp but was hesitant on the 25 due to the weight of my boat. In the end I went for Yamaha 25 with electric+manual start due to how light it is plus the current incentives they have. Hoping to drop it in the water at some point today. Can anyone tell me easiest way to post a picture if its on my desktop? Looks like I need a url? Thanks!!


----------



## solrac

Figured it out


----------



## jasper60103

solrac said:


> Figured it out


Nice!

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## hounddog

I'm really interested in these motors. They seem to be really nice.
Does anybody have any new information or data on these?


----------



## Brian121804

hounddog said:


> I'm really interested in these motors. They seem to be really nice.
> Does anybody have any new information or data on these?



Nothing new, but here's the sales brochure:
https://yamahaoutboards.com/en-us/home/outboards/25-2-5-hp/f25-specialty

They have some incentives at the moment:
https://yamahaoutboards.com/en-us/feature/yamaha-outboard-s-choose-reliability-event

There's a thread or two over at microskiff.

I just got my Command Link 6y8 tachometer kit. Expensive but looks very nice.


----------



## turbotodd

I have no new information other than we've sold about 20 of them and nary a one has been back for anything. Most who've answered calls from the dealer have all said the same thing. Light and fast as a 2 stroke with the convenience and running confidence of the 4 stroke. Hard to beat.

That dad gum ETEC is still 160 lbs, though....and it's a 2 stroke; albeit an expensive one. Time to play catch-up?

I wish the Yamaha was a 3 cylinder but for what it is, it's awesome. I want one but my antique is still going and I don't see a need for a payment until this one goes belly up.


----------



## jasper60103

turbotodd said:


> ... *I want one but my antique is still going and I don't see a need for a payment until this one goes belly up.*



I hear yah. With a good running motor, its hard to justify.


----------



## hounddog

Does anyone have any new reviews on this motor?


----------



## turbotodd

I will certainly give you a review as soon as I get mine.

I'm going to repower. My old 2000 model F25 Yamaha is for sale, and I won't buy the new one (we have plenty in stock as of today) until I sell the old one...and the old one is an awesome motor and ready to use just as it is. Short shaft, electric start with manual starter for a back-up, and it starts SO easy with the recoil. One hand, about half a pull and it's purring. Lot easier to pull than the new ones to be honest. Actually I may dig mine out tomorrow and head up to the lake. Crappie are biting and the evenings are perfect. That is, if my old motor hasn't sold by then. If it has, it'll be a few days before I can give a review because it'll take me a bit to get used to it, figure everything out, mount it, test it in different conditions, etc.

Here is what I know of it, in testing a prototype a couple years ago. It's EFI, and because of that and it's lighter weight, it accelerates faster than the older version (07-17 years). The top speed was within 1mph, with the 18 model being on the faster end, but again, there's almost a 50lb weight difference. Both were tested with the exact same prop, 9 7/8 x 11 1/4 white aluminum prop. There might be another MPH in a good stainless prop...dunno...I have a few that I'd like to try out on the new one though, but they wouldn't let us do any of that in prototype testing of course. We were barely able to get it to full throttle. The 18's use the same prop shaft as the older ones, even the old 2 stroke stuff-so that the props will all interchange. 2.08 just like the older ones were.

Now the bad. The old ('99 through '17) had a big heavy "slug" in the "back" of the crankcase, which was the engine's counterbalancer. It was to offset the weight of the two pistons and rods, and did a decent job. The 2018's don't have this slug (I call it a slug because it's about 7 lbs as I remember), BUT the engine is SMALLER displacement (432cc vs 498cc for the old ones), so right off idle, there is some vibration. It is NOT excessive due to the engine's smaller displacement. it's no more than the older one. As soon as you accelerate to about 1800 RPM, the vibration disappears completely. It's right about 1100-1500 range. I don't care for the front-mounted tilt lock lever...but it's something I'd have to get used to since my older motors (Evinrude, Tohatsu, Mercury, Suzuki, and now my current 2000 model Yamaha) are all on the Starboard side. Not a big deal. And...in my case, I don't like the tiller setup...and again, it's personal...the "old" ones had a nice block of aluminum which was part of the swivel bracket that the tiller actually bolted to, and that block made a great place to mount a simple sheet metal bracket to mount a tinytach to. That's the only reason I mentioned it. LOVE the tiller's ease of use but I just haven't found a nice factory-appearing way to mount a tinytach to it yet. I'll work on that once I get the new one in my possession. EFI. It's great and it's not, at the same time. Great that there's no choke to fool with (and neither did the old F25's), but the bad...is that if (when) the fuel gets old in an EFI system, you can easily spend a chunk of change in cleaning that garbage out, and warranty don't cover it. A carb cleanin' is about $100 if you pay a dealer. EFI? Can be 10x that if you have to replace the injectors, high pressure pump, regulator, lines, etc. BUT...yamaha was smart...they put a DRAIN on the VST (VST is the vapor separator tank...basically a small reservoir that encases the fuel pump among other things)...so that you can drain the VST of the fuel before putting the engine up for more than about 30 days. I'm careful with my fuel so that's not an issue with me, but for some, it IS (or more specifically "can be" an issue). 

Someone come buy my old motor so I can put the money into the new one!


----------



## turbotodd

Update: Sold the old F25, new one is sitting at work in the crate, paperwork is almost all done...but we ran into a "snag"...can't complete the sale until next week when I get back in town. But I did speak with someone who knows a whole lot more than I do about these things and says I'll love it compared to my old one...30+ lbs lighter, EFI, backup recoil start (which my old one had too....he just didn't know it), etc. Said the pre-production motors were a little less refined than the actual production units are, which is good news-I hope. 

I had YDIS hooked up to it earlier and did the PDI stuff. Pretty cool what you can do with the EFI as far as datalogging, etc.

The tap up/down trolling speed is super nice but I'm gonna miss having an idle screw on the carburetor. Just me being old-fashioned I reckon.


----------



## turbotodd

Ok I promised a thorough and factual review, and here it is.


I love this motor. What I have to compare to is (1) my 2000 model F25 that I just sold and (2) the old 3 cylinder 25 Yamaha that I've got out in the shed that is not broken in yet, the old F20 that I had briefly, a 2006 F15 that was a "flip" motor (buy/resell), and a pair of Tohatsu/Mercury 4 stroke 25hp motors that I've rented/run a few times at the river. The 3 cylinder 25hp Yamaha (98 model) that I have gets used seldom and honestly at some point it'll probably find a new owner (brother wants it).

First thing's first. It is actually possible to tilt it from inside the boat! Lightweight it is for sure. That part I absolutely LOVE. At least compared to my other two Yamaha's. It's still not PT&T though  Upon the push of the button, the engine fires (purrs) to life, idles up immediately to about 1400 RPM then settles within seconds down to exactly 900 (within a few RPM of course). The trolling speed is adjustable via switch on the side of the tiller handle, which is easily accessible. It will troll DOWN to 750 RPM with 3 clicks of the down switch; and then 3 "clicks" up, it will troll up to 1050 RPM. I like that part but don't know how much I'll actually use it. With my prop and boat, I'm seeing 2.0 mph at 750, and 4.1 mph at 1050 just for reference-for those who may want to use it for trolling. The throttle grip is perfectly shaped, very comfortable and easy to use. The tiller handle is longer than the old Yamaha's were-which is nice, but the best part is that it's angled toward the starboard side (toward the operator) and it is just really natural. It's not a steep angle, but it doesn't stick straight out of the front of the motor like the old ones did, either. Shifter. Mind you, this thing has 0.5 hours on it so it's still new...it's a little notchy to shift forward-neutral-reverse but nothing I would complain about. Shifter is mounted up on the tiller handle about mid ways fore and aft, very easy to access it. Running. At low speeds it does shake more than my old F25 did. The old 3 cylinder 2 stroke is smoother, but again, it's basically a brand new motor that gets used about twice a year to keep everything lubricated. The Yamaha rep says the shake will subside with hours. I hope so. It's not severe but it's not silky smooth like the Merc/Tohatsu/Nissan 25's are (they are 3 cylinder engines). The shake goes away at about 1400-1500 RPM. Quiet. Man is it quiet-much less noise than my old 2000 F25 was, and I thought it was quiet. It had a very slight noise from the foot (gear noise)...this 2018, the foot is SILENT. Speaking of the foot, the prop shaft is identical to the old 2 stroke and 4 stroke 25's so your props (if you have one) will retrofit. I'll get to propping in a minute. The tilt lock-it's no longer on the starboard side like they were for many years, which wasn't a problem for me (I got used to it)-Yamaha moved it to the FRONT, down kinda low, and I wasn't sure how I'd like that...but it's real easy to get to, easy to use, real ergonomically shaped, everything about it is an improvement over the old style. And for the hunters, it's now out off the way so that brush can't get into it. I've had that happen a couple times with my 3 cylinder. 

The EFI. It's SILKY smooth transitioning from idle to part throttle to full throttle, and I mean it's absolutely linear all the way through. Yamaha did an excellent job there for sure. Cold starting? Effortless. Hot start? Effortless. It doesn't sweat either one. The backup recoil starter does take more of a harder pull than my old F25 did, BUT that motor was carbureted with auto-choke, and I had it idling slightly rich for better starting in cool waters (which is where I fish a lot). It took maybe 7-10 lbs pull to get that one started, this one takes closer to 20 lbs, and you can't just easily pull it because the stator has to generate enough electricity to power the EFI system, so you have to pull with some authority. It is still not hard to pull though, and NOWHERE near the effort to start my dad's 9.9 Evinrude (1986) or my 25 3 cylinder Yamaha, which is about the same as the 9.9 is as far as pull starting effort.

Now everyone wants to know by now how fast it is. I tried the factory white 9 7/8" x 11 1/4" aluminum prop on my War Eagle 548 which is rated for 40hp. The hull is 348 lbs, motor's 133, battery's mounted in the back and it's 43 lbs, I'm 200, the trolling motor is about 30, my tackle box is at least 30 (probably 35-ish), 5 fishing rods, cooler, and 10 lbs anchor. So I'm guessing maybe 850 lbs total. That should be pretty close. I'm seeing 29.0 mph on decent water at 6000 RPM with the white prop that it comes with. "Decent" meaning about 4" chop with some wake from other boaters on the water. So out of curiousity I stuck my Turbo SS 10x11 on it, which is typically about 1.0-1.5 mph faster with the old motor, and sure enough, I'm on the fuel cut (rev limiter) at 30.1mph steady, 6190 showing on the tach. So I really need either some cupping put into the prop or step into a 12" and hope for the best. I think cupping will do it; and may be the best option based on the fact that I was running "light" today, usually the GF goes with me so that will bring the RPM down a couple hundred. But I was surprised to see the fuel cut at 6200. My old F25? It went into limit at about 100 RPM higher (right around 6300) which worked good with this prop. Acceleration...it does accelerate a little faster than my old F25 did, but it's splitting hairs here. Old one was idle to plane in 2.3 seconds, this one is 1.9 as best I can tell. I have the motor mounted 2 1/4" up over the transom but I think I can stand to go another 1/2" or so...but I'm out of clamping space (just clamped on for the time being). If the Garage was bigger, I'd put a mini-jacker or a CMC (panther?) PT&T on it and try that, but it won't fit in the garage with either one....as it is, I have about 3/4" inch to spare at the very most, so adding 5.5" of setback ain't gonna work. I've read where folks have claimed to have 2, 3, 4 guys and a thousand lbs of "stuff" in the boat and still run 35mph....ain't happening, unless you have a 10mph current at your stern with a 25mph tail wind on a fast hull like an Ambush, Havoc, Edge, etc.

One neat feature is that you can buy an adapter that plugs into the outboard's ECU, then you can download a free app for your smartphone and watch your ECU data on the fly in realtime...WIRELESSLY. Pretty neat feature but I haven't explored it yet. Also, I believe that the ECU can connect to a Lowrance unit somehow but I have also not explored that yet. I don't even have a unit in my boat; don't have a use for it honestly other than depth and maybe GPS. These new Yamaha's also have the option for an immobilizer (YCOP I think they call it). This is a wireless feature that enables one to "lock" the engine, thus it can't be started, sorta like a security feature. I don't know much about it, or how functional it'd be on a 25hp engine, but it's there for those who might need it.

All in all I love most things about it, but again it's still brand new, tight, and I'm gonna give it a few hours of use before I start complaining about the idle shake, which again isn't severe, but I don't like it. What an almost perfect end to a warm, humid productive day at work. I left work at 1730 and was in the water by 1930 hr, rode around getting used to the motor, adjusting the torque tab, adjusting the trim pin, and just boat riding at different speeds. I leisurely headed over to my favorite spot, which is a sunken treetop over about 30' of water about 3 miles from the ramp, dropped a jig over the side not expecting anything and pulled a few smaller crappies out, while watching the sun setting to the West, the sky turning orange, then red, and right about the time the red faded seen a pair of bald eagles fly directly overhead; one of them was a juvenile-the other adult. Great evening, wish I could've stayed and fished a while after dark but I have to be up bright & early tomorrow so I called it an evening.


----------



## Zum

Nice review , keep us updated with any future "discoveries".
I just can't kill my old 86, 30hp Mariner(Yamaha) but the noise gets to me sometimes.
I've looked at this outboard as a replacement, due to its weight and reliability but at only 432cc was thinking some reviews were exaggerated. My boats a 1652 with a small jet tunnel, going down 5hp might really kill the performance. , seeing it is rated 35hp tiller 60hp console.(I use a tiller)

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


----------



## Brian121804

I find the tilt lock, friction lever, & start button to be cumbersome.
They're all buried behind the tiller mount & associated rigging.






turbotodd said:


> One neat feature is that you can buy an adapter that plugs into the outboard's ECU,
> then you can download a free app for your smartphone and watch your ECU data on the fly in realtime...WIRELESSLY.
> Pretty neat feature but I haven't explored it yet.



Is this something new which is available to the end user? Last I looked YDIS was only available to dealers.
I have the Commandlink tach, so I currently have what I need while running. 
At some point I'm sure YDIS would come in handy for troubleshooting though.


----------



## hounddog

Thanks for the review! I have been interested in these motors since I heard that they were on the market.
Seems like a good little motor. I have the "new" Suzuki 25 and it's really nice, but I'm certainly wanting to see this motor in person.
The Zuke has plenty of low to midrange torque. I'm just wondering how this motor will compare being only 2 cylinders with less displacement.


----------



## turbotodd

I will have to check into the availability of the YDIS smart. It may very well be dealer only. Displacement seems to have been a common issue among others. Or should I say "common in conversation".

Remember...I had a 2000 model, which was around 500cc. This new one is about 70cc smaller. And it accelerates faster, smoother, and has more top end with the exact same RPM and foot ratio and wheel. Displacement alone, in my opinion, doesn't mean more power or more torque. The 2017+ intake manifold is tuned differently. And actually if you look at the pre-2008 motors, the intake manifold was a weird shape. It was also integral to the cylinder head similar to the old Ford straight sixes (144, 170, 200, 250 cu in). Then the air intake silencer...it had to make a complete 180° turn into the carburetor. You'd think that it cost some power....but I did also try an intake funnel off of a 250cc sport bike, attached directly to the carb, expecting 1 or 2 mph. Nope. Not even after jetting. That tells me that Yamaha did a decent job of tuning the carb to the engine in respect to camshaft timing, ignition timing, etc-none of which are adjustable of course. Cam timing is, but it's one tooth either way which is like 23.5° each tooth (I think...going off of memory)-which ain't gonna do much good. Then in '08 they changed the head where the intake was better tuned to the rest of the engine, they also put a better starter on it and a better CDI system, which added up to a little more low end torque and smoother running/starting...but it also gained some weight at the same time. 

To get the same or more HP/torque out of a smaller displacement is a nice feat. Especially considering that the outboard also lost 60 lbs or so.


----------



## ppine

Weight is definitely a factor. For light boats like a drift boat, it is possible to make a case that an older 2 stroke model for half the money, and less weight should be preferable. But then you give up some fuel mileage. My Honda 8 is a 4 stroke but surprisingly loud and heavy at around 87 pounds.


----------



## wmk0002

turbotodd, any updates on the low speed vibrations? How many hours have you logged on it? I'm going to start selling off all of my motors in hopes to get a brand new 25hp by spring. Was leaning Tohatsu but the weight turns me off plus I like the variable troll setting of the Yamaha as I enjoy exploring new water and using my side scan imaging at slow speeds. The tiller vibration is something that I think would drive me crazy though.


----------



## turbotodd

Yeah I have almost 7 hours and close to a full 3 gal tank of fuel on it now. I'm about to wear it out.

Still shakes but either (1) I'm getting used to it or (2) it's not as bad as it was when new. I'll take a little shake LONG before I have to deal with not being able to tilt it, or having to put a 160+ lb motor on the transom again.

I did use the rope starter a couple times while out this past week too. Not too hard to start at all, but you have to yank and keep pulling. The reason for this is because the flywheel/stator have to generate enough voltage to fire the EFI system. On my old one, I used the camshaft from a manual start motor which has a little bit different compression release, and I'd just grab hold of the rope, give it a half-hearted pull and it was running. Didn't even have to turn around. But again that motor was well used, had over 200 hours on it (that I put on it...and I bought it used). This one will probably ease up as it breaks in.

I have noticed, though, that I've got some spray coming off of the sides of the foot. At about 25 mph and up, it sprays water about 45 degrees up and out from the lower unit area. Doesn't bother me but it's just something I noticed. I don't get wet, not the least bit and this past week I sorta wish I did get some spray on me...it was well over 100°F with a heat index of 128° by time I got back home. Thought about jumping in but climbing back into the boat isn't all that much fun plus I spied a cottonmouth hanging out & working on his tan in a partially submerged treetop, so I figured it'd be better to stay in the boat.

I sure do like this motor. Especially it being considerably quieter at full speed than my old one was. Probably half as noisy. The old motor wasn't loud compared to the 3 cylinder 2 stroke 25 I have but this one I have now is WAY quieter...the GF and I can hold a conversation over at it full tilt with me sitting next to the motor. We ain't talking at a low voice like we were sitting still, but we could raise our voices and hear each other just fine. That was impossible with the old one.

I will also have to play with props. I'm on the limiter at full speed even with the high heat we had the other day. Last time I was out, was the only one at the lake and the lake conditions were perfect to measure GPS top speed. Already knew it would run right at 29.9mph so I pulled the seats, trolling motor, tackle box, rods, anchor, anything that was weight but the paddle. On the limiter HARD at 30.0mph in just a few seconds, so it desperately needs a prop...at least a 12" pitch (11" currently). In time I'll test more. Just not in the budget right now.


----------



## wmk0002

Thanks! I really appreciate the update!



turbotodd said:


> Yeah I have almost 7 hours and close to a full 3 gal tank of fuel on it now. I'm about to wear it out.
> 
> Still shakes but either (1) I'm getting used to it or (2) it's not as bad as it was when new. I'll take a little shake LONG before I have to deal with not being able to tilt it, or having to put a 160+ lb motor on the transom again.
> 
> I did use the rope starter a couple times while out this past week too. Not too hard to start at all, but you have to yank and keep pulling. The reason for this is because the flywheel/stator have to generate enough voltage to fire the EFI system. On my old one, I used the camshaft from a manual start motor which has a little bit different compression release, and I'd just grab hold of the rope, give it a half-hearted pull and it was running. Didn't even have to turn around. But again that motor was well used, had over 200 hours on it (that I put on it...and I bought it used). This one will probably ease up as it breaks in.
> 
> I have noticed, though, that I've got some spray coming off of the sides of the foot. At about 25 mph and up, it sprays water about 45 degrees up and out from the lower unit area. Doesn't bother me but it's just something I noticed. I don't get wet, not the least bit and this past week I sorta wish I did get some spray on me...it was well over 100°F with a heat index of 128° by time I got back home. Thought about jumping in but climbing back into the boat isn't all that much fun plus I spied a cottonmouth hanging out & working on his tan in a partially submerged treetop, so I figured it'd be better to stay in the boat.
> 
> I sure do like this motor. Especially it being considerably quieter at full speed than my old one was. Probably half as noisy. The old motor wasn't loud compared to the 3 cylinder 2 stroke 25 I have but this one I have now is WAY quieter...the GF and I can hold a conversation over at it full tilt with me sitting next to the motor. We ain't talking at a low voice like we were sitting still, but we could raise our voices and hear each other just fine. That was impossible with the old one.
> 
> I will also have to play with props. I'm on the limiter at full speed even with the high heat we had the other day. Last time I was out, was the only one at the lake and the lake conditions were perfect to measure GPS top speed. Already knew it would run right at 29.9mph so I pulled the seats, trolling motor, tackle box, rods, anchor, anything that was weight but the paddle. On the limiter HARD at 30.0mph in just a few seconds, so it desperately needs a prop...at least a 12" pitch (11" currently). In time I'll test more. Just not in the budget right now.


----------



## Brian121804

wmk0002 said:


> turbotodd, any updates on the low speed vibrations? How many hours have you logged on it? I'm going to start selling off all of my motors in hopes to get a brand new 25hp by spring. Was leaning Tohatsu but the weight turns me off plus I like the variable troll setting of the Yamaha as I enjoy exploring new water and using my side scan imaging at slow speeds. The tiller vibration is something that I think would drive me crazy though.



Getting ready for next weekends trip (Webster lake, IN).
I took a few videos, idling in neutral, at various rpm.

The tiller handle vibrates a bit @ 1000 rpm, although 
I don't find it objectionable in gear on the water.
It also seems much louder in the video than it actually is.

This is a 2017 F25SWHC, just over 14 hours on it.

800 rpm:
https://youtu.be/KF7Fc6Nd1Rw

1000 rpm:
https://youtu.be/mV8mFg0wAao

1200 rpm:
https://youtu.be/V53WBS4CdBk

1600 rpm:
https://youtu.be/dIEMCH97bIY


----------



## turbotodd

Exactly like mine. Most folks won't have any issue with it. I'm really picky. My friends all say borderline OCD.


----------



## wmk0002

Thanks guys!


----------



## Bodycamp13

What speeds are you seeing with the F25 amd two people in the 1648? I am torn between a Suzuki and Yamaha...I have the 1648MV NCS with a 15hp 2 stroke Merc that I want to up-size.


----------

