# 1991 1648 Tracker Sportsman 16



## BossHogg (Dec 23, 2009)

She's a 16' Tracker sportsman with 48" across the bottom of the hull, and just shy of 70" across the gunwales at the stern. It came with a 24V bow mount TM, 12V transom mount TM, 1993 Johnson 9.9, stern and bow fish finders, 3 deep cycle batteries, and a EZ Loader trailer. Package was $1,200.00 and at first I thought I got a great deal. Then I got her home and started digging.. o.0 It's been sitting outside for at least the past 2 years uncovered. I'm sure the batteries are shot and I wouldn't be surprised if I need new FF's and TM's too. I already replaced both trailer wheels. A friend of a friend is going through a bankruptcy and needed to get rid of it fast. I googled it, and found almost nothing on this exact boat, so if anyone has any experience with it I'd be very appreciative!

Anyway, I picked her up this past Sunday, and have had her in the garage tearing the old conversion out and shop-vaccing. I have also been spending a fair amount of time lurking here and trying to wrap my head around this project. You guys are awesome! It makes me wonder how people pulled stuff like this off pre-net! lol.. lots of trial and error I suppose.

Ok, a little background:
I fished like a fiend for several years starting back in the late 80's and through the mid 90's. In about 96' I basically traded it in for the game of golf. Well here it is almost 2010, and I got my handicap index down to the mid 8's, and I'm burnt to a crisp on the game. I'm ready to shift gears again and start chasing little (hopefully not too little) green fish! If I were to keep golfing, I think I could expect a short life as my head would likely explode some day. #-o 

Occupation:
The only reason I'm including this is to provide a bit of a peek into my design / workmanship habits and tendencies. I have spent the last 13 years working in various capacities for a company that does contract machining work for the medical device industry. I made my rounds through many different departments. I have done fixture design and fabrication, programming, setup, and pretty much anything else that needed done. Here's part of what scares me a bit about tackling a project like this.. If you need an implant made to +/-.0001", I'm your man. But a carpenter I AM NOT! lol. The previous conversion that was built into this boat was done by a machinist, and I damned-near had to cut it out with a sawzall to get it out and it wasn't even fastened to the hull. (see pics)
Except for fixture design, I have always had drawings to work from. And even then, the way in which the workpiece is dimensioned and toleranced basically dictates (along with the machine tool envelope, throughput quantity, and machining discipline) the jig design.
Anyway, I need to always be on guard against over-thinking or over-engineering things. Form, Fit, and Function right?  Right!

I'm still very early in the design stage, and haven't even decided if I'm going to repaint her, so if any of you guys have any suggestions, thoughts, or ideas, I'm all ears, and now's the time, so speak up! I have to get this done in like 3 months *tops*!

Some random thoughts that have been bouncing around while lurking and tearing apart the old build, so keep in mind, just brainstorming at this point.

1) DO NOT copy what the last guy did! lmao..
2) I notice some people choose to put the bow pedestal bracket almost right against the drop behind them. I'm thinking I'd like to be able to keep almost all of my gear behind me so that when I want to swap something out, I can just spin around, and there it is. I'd never have to get out of my seat to tie something different on, and it would keep the area in front of me free of clutter to stand, move about a bit, fight a hogg, or w/e.  Maybe tackle storage in recessed pockets in front of me or off to the side?
3) The boat came with 6 gal can and two deep cycles all in the area behind the last bench against the transom. I'd like to redistribute this weight a little more evenly.
4) I'm undecided about the center bench. It has a built-in bait/live well, and I think I'd like to have one at least at some point in the event I decide to join an area electric-only club, but I'm unsure of the best way to go about accommodating this; especially since I'd like to include an 8' rod locker. Prefab maybe? Have to look into that.
5) I would like a centralized electrical panel with toggles for all devices and easy access to both the front and back of the panel; or at least design it so that it's very easy to remove and gain access to the back-side should something need added or removed later-on. Oh, also, an on-board charging system.
6) Modular decking design? I'd like to explore the possibility of being able to just reach down, grab a couple of recessed handles and pull out a section of deck if I need to. Has anybody ever attempted a floating/sectional deck design?
7) Since my harrowing experience tearing out the old decking, I've looked into the possibility of using Seaboard as my deck material. Has anyone used this before? Any known pitfalls associated with its use? I'm thinking gluing carpet may be one, but that's an unknown at this point. For the last couple of years I've been working as an estimator, and as a result I have acquired a modest network of vendors. I contacted one of my plastics vendors the other day and they can offer me 3/4" x 54" x 96" (1 or 2 pcs) for $306.00/ea. Pretty sure I'd need 2 sheets. 3/4" thick enough in Seaboard? Probably depends on my framing and how close together my supports are I suppose. 

Ok, getting a little long-winded here now so I'll wrap it up and post some pics. Again, speak up guys! Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi.. You're my only hope! lol

Bow deck as it was. I thought the moss was a nice touch. Gives it that "rustic" look.






Stern end as it was.





More moss! o.0





Original battery / outboard fuel area





Mid-boat view of live/bait well and a little platform they put in I guess to support a 3rd seat.





The stern seat on a scissor-type adjustable riser.





Removed batteries and got out the shop-vac





After a little cleaning up. Ok, a lot of cleaning up!





Little raised platform.. seen better days





This is the underside of the decking in front of stern passenger. Oh, btw, this thing probably weighed at least 100 lbs. Thought I was gonna have a hernia getting it out by myself! 





Nice! Seaboard here I come!? 





yup! You counted right. 16 screws holding down 1 pedestal base. Oh, and all fasteners used in this boat were neither aluminum nor SS, and almost all were torx. I already feel like I have been beat up and I haven't even built anything yet! lol





Bow deck after removal. Yup, that's a 2x6. Again, probably 100 lbs.





So there we have it! I wanted to post those as prime examples of what NOT to do and as a frame of reference for a starting point.

Things will naturally be a bit busy through the holidays, but after that it's full steam ahead!


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## BossHogg (Dec 23, 2009)

Oops.. Forgot to link current standing.


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## Nussy (Dec 23, 2009)

If the motors work I think you got a pretty good deal!!!! As far as the conversion. This site rocks for ideas but in the end go with your gut...... you're the one that has to fish out of it. A 1648 is a great boat to start with. Should be very stable for whatever style platform you decide to build. I like the idea of redistributing the weight a little bit, but try to get it in the water to run it to see how it's distributed already. Good luck looking forward to seeing your build. 

P.S. I'm a salesman with very little construction/building background. Doing boat conversions really aren't as tough as I orginally anticipated. They can however be time consuming. Just be patient and everything will turn out well. The guys on this site are fantastic and always willing to help and provide great ideas. Don't be afraid to ask for input.


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## Nussy (Dec 23, 2009)

Couple more things. My Mirrocraft had removeable panels when I bought it. They were a nightmareas they were very small and would blow around when trailering. I ended up ditching the idea and putting in permanent decks with hatches. As far as the sea board goes, I don't know that it worth the money. You can get a sheet of plywood for $15-20. Granted the plastic stuff last longers but you'll probably end up recarpeting anyway so that means pulling the deck. $600 in 2 sheets of decking is a lot of cash, I'd save it and get a nicer motor or electronics....but that's just my two cents.


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## jonboatjerry (Dec 24, 2009)

Nussy said:


> Couple more things. My Mirrocraft had removeable panels when I bought it. They were a nightmareas they were very small and would blow around when trailering. I ended up ditching the idea and putting in permanent decks with hatches. As far as the sea board goes, I don't know that it worth the money. You can get a sheet of plywood for $15-20. Granted the plastic stuff last longers but you'll probably end up recarpeting anyway so that means pulling the deck. $600 in 2 sheets of decking is a lot of cash, I'd save it and get a nicer motor or electronics....but that's just my two cents.


I agree with Nussy. I'd stick with plywood. You can use numerous products to waterproof the plywood and it will last for many years if it's not sitting outside uncovered. The 2x6 supports are a little overkill. I have a 1436 Lowe jon and used 2x4 supports along with a plywood deck. Most of the weight is in the deck, around 25 lbs. and the weight of the supports is close to 15 pounds. My whole front deck including supports the seat base and fasteners weighs around 41 lbs or so. I tried to keep it as close to 40 lbs as I could. I know your deck is much larger but you can use your imagination and a little elbow grease and come up with a much lighter and probably stronger deck than the one you removed. I also considered aluminum for my supports but decided it wasn't in my budget. lol Good luck! Have fun!


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## jonboatjerry (Dec 24, 2009)

jonboatjerry said:


> Nussy said:
> 
> 
> > Couple more things. My Mirrocraft had removeable panels when I bought it. They were a nightmareas they were very small and would blow around when trailering. I ended up ditching the idea and putting in permanent decks with hatches. As far as the sea board goes, I don't know that it worth the money. You can get a sheet of plywood for $15-20. Granted the plastic stuff last longers but you'll probably end up recarpeting anyway so that means pulling the deck. $600 in 2 sheets of decking is a lot of cash, I'd save it and get a nicer motor or electronics....but that's just my two cents.
> ...


Oh, as for the livewell. I kept my gravity fed livewell and added an areation system to mine so I could fish tournaments. Please feel free to view my pics. I hope they might help. I look forward to seeing pics of your progress.


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## BossHogg (Dec 26, 2009)

Thanks for the input guys!

I'm gonna agree with you guys with regards to the decking. I'm going with the plywood. I figure if I design the framing right, it really shouldn't be that much of a pain to replace in a few years when the time comes. I am going to go with aluminum framing though. _That_ part I don't _ever_ want to have to replace. Plus, I really like the idea of a cut-off blade on a body grinder, a drill, and pop rivets for construction.

So I thought I had a basic design in mind.. It went something like this.
I was going to keep the front pedestal seat where it was, but build a deck on top of the front bench that extended bow-ward until it met the what I call "dash board". Then it would drop down behind the bench to a very low stern deck area. Something like this..





Then I removed the ugly piece of angle iron that ran across the edge and was riveted in place. Underneath I found this. o.0





This has forced me to rethink the original deck layout. I'm thinking that if I reuse the old mounting spot, there's a strong possibility that this will get worse, so I came up with this and I wanted to see what you guys thought.






Too long a deck to be that high? If I did it this way, do you think I'd be better off just removing the bench with the baitwell?

Also, the rear seating.. If I make it a pedestal seat, won't it be too high for the guy back there to operate my 9.9 tiller? If that's true, I can't really have much of a deck 'cause there's be nowhere for his legs! I'd thought about just making it a flush mount with extension rods that could be inserted for fishing, and removed for steering. I'm curious how this has been dealt with. Also, how important is it that this seat be off-center? Keep in mind that this boat will rarely be used with the outboard. I like electric only lakes the best, and plan on picking up a glass hull within 2-3 years if all goes well. Two mounting plates next to each other maybe?

Thanks!


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## dyeguy1212 (Dec 26, 2009)

don't see the downfall in the front deck being that long... I'm actually doing the exact same thing on my similar 1648. I like room to roam around when im pitching and what not... it means you can take a side step to cast around a branch as opposed to using the TM to navigate the whole boat around it 8)

edit: by the way, Id leave the baitwell in place and make a hatch when I made the deck.. consider yourself lucky... I had to pay 300 bucks for one of those to put in the exact same spot


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## Brine (Dec 26, 2009)

We have lots of guys in the club that run their 9.9 while using a pedestal in your size boat and it doesn't look to be the least bit unstable, and since the tiller can pivot up, it seems to work just fine sitting at that height. That said, I think if I was building from scratch, I might consider a second pedastal base (see bassboy's Yazoo conversion) If I were running a bigger motor like his. If the seaboard was in the budget, you might consider using sheet aluminum. Last time I checked, it was running about $250 a sheet (4 x 8 .125) and you'll never have to replace it. I think I may be using an ACM panel (4 x 12) that I can get for $100. Just don't have anyone with first-hand experience to say it works good or not. I've yet to see a dowside for me tho. 

I would leave the baitwell where it is. 

Good luck with the build, and I look forward to seeing your progress.


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## Nussy (Dec 27, 2009)

I like the yellow design better. I'd really be careful with your front seat placement. In my first build the original seat was way too far forward, and I moved it 6-8" back. Yours looks pretty far forward as well. I'd get the bracing in and cut the ply wood then jump in and see where you want to put it. With a deck that big you have some freedom to move it around. 

In regards to the rear sear. In my boat I have a pedestal. All I do is change it from a short stubby 2 inch pedistal to a taller one for fishing. Takes about 30 seconds. 

I'd also leave the livewell,and just make it hatch in the new design.


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## BossHogg (Dec 28, 2009)

Thanks for the valuable feedback guys!

"If the seaboard was in the budget, you might consider using sheet aluminum. Last time I checked, it was running about $250 a sheet (4 x 8 .125) and you'll never have to replace it."
- I just called this morning and I can get it from a vendor for $225/sheet, but seeing as I'd probably need 3 sheets, it'd still amount to $675 and I think I'd rather just keep my templates and recut the deck and recarpet every few years as needed. Then I could put the extra funds into better electronics or a new swimbait rig or something.  I even thought about just making extra decks now while I've got production up-and-running, but I decided against it in the event that I decide to make changes on any future builds of this hull.

"by the way, Id leave the baitwell in place and make a hatch when I made the deck", "I would leave the baitwell where it is.", "I'd also leave the livewell,and just make it hatch in the new design."
- I agree. I'm going to leave it, build a hatch, and just build my aerator and pump on the outside of the bench near the hull. I don't remember who posted it at the moment, but I saw someone else build this way, and it seemed to be readily accessible both in the initial build and for repair/maintenance. My only real concern is capacity. I don't know how many gallons this one is, but it can't be more than 10. I don't know if this is big enough say for (5) 2lb bass..?

"I like the yellow design better. I'd really be careful with your front seat placement. In my first build the original seat was way too far forward, and I moved it 6-8" back. Yours looks pretty far forward as well. I'd get the bracing in and cut the ply wood then jump in and see where you want to put it. With a deck that big you have some freedom to move it around."
- I agree. However, if you read my post in tsrtinboat's thread, ( found here: https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11501) you'll see that my "yellow sketch" is no longer going to work. I'm going to have to cut the bow deck short of the livewell bench and drop down to the bench height due to the gunnels dropping below the plane of the bow deck somewhere over the middle of the bench. It's either that or slope the deck. however it shakes-out, I will definitely be keeping the post back as far as is practical. (I hate clutter in my way) :? 

"In regards to the rear seat. In my boat I have a pedestal. All I do is change it from a short stubby 2 inch pedestal to a taller one for fishing. Takes about 30 seconds."
- I'm with ya man. Those little extensions are cheap, and for as little as that motor will be used, it'll hardly be worth building anything permanent into the design just for that.

So I found my source for my aluminum framing materials today. 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" x .125" angle at $1.56/ft, and 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" x .125" square tube for $2.85/ft. (a TON cheaper than HD btw) Now I just need to take some measurements tonight and work up some quantities; which will be calculated at measured estimate * 1.25. lol


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## BossHogg (Jan 2, 2010)

Well, first I wanted to remove it, then I decided to keep it, then I decided to remove it...






Reasoning: I just don't think that thing was big enough to use as a livewell, and I never use minnows, shiners, chubs, etc.. I had decided to just cut out the baitwell and get a cooler that would fit down in the same spot and leave the bench, but there was nothing 70qt or higher that had dimensions that would allow me to put it in the same spot. This way I can get whatever cooler I want, convert it to a livewell, design framing and deck layout around that, then reinforce the lateral hull support by rivetting some 1.5"sq tube (which is supposed to be in on Tues! =D) to the remaining flange.

Oh, also I wanted to ask you guys.. I have been looking at the cooler/livewell conversion kits, and none of them say anything about pump-in/pump-out. Am I going to be able to use that hull opening left behind from the gravity baitwell as either a pump-in or pump-out source? Does that require two separate pumps, or do you just reverse your fill pump to pump out?


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## danmyersmn (Jan 2, 2010)

The cooler livewell I think you are talking about has a pump that you either toss in the cooler or toss in the lake to pump water to the opposite location.


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## BossHogg (Jan 4, 2010)

Took a tip from a couple of other guys here and worked up an extremely rough and preliminary design..(not a CAD-guy by trade, so let's just say it was an adventure) Just looking for some thoughts &/or feedback. I made it so that the entire hull was out of the water, that's not the real water line.. Just added it for effect. The igloo is the 100qt. I could downsize to the 70 if I had to I suppose. I read somewhere that's a bare minimum. I hid the hatch lids covering the two of the batteries on either side of the livewell, and have yet to add any other storage compartments, but that the general gist of it.. V0.001 anyway. Let's hear it guys.. the aluminum is supposed to be in on Tues!


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## danmyersmn (Jan 4, 2010)

looks like it is well layed out and should work fine.


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## BossHogg (Jan 6, 2010)

Well, I have been looking around at some of the various livewell options and have borrowed some ideas and elements from several and combined them to hopefully do everything I'd like it to. I am by no stretch a plumber nor an electrician, so I thought I'd throw the design up and see if anybody could see any reason why it would not work.






This design would require some valve switching during transitions between fill, recirculate, and pump-out, but I don't think it'd be that bigga deal.

Here's what I was thinking:
Fill - Valve 1 closed, 2 & 3 open, run pump #1.
Recirculate - Valve 3 closed, 1 & 2 open, turn timer on/run pump #1.
Pump-out - Valve 2 closed, 1 & 3 open, run pump #2.

My main concern is the height of the pumps and keeping them primed. Do the pumps have to remain below the water line? How are they typically primed? If you need to, can you use the in-line manual primers? Keep in mind I have an existing thru-hull port below the water line (it's right at the bottom of the hull where the floor meets the wall) that has a roughly 1.5"dia pipe that's welded in. Also, I was hoping to keep all plumbing and hardware on the outside of the well (IGLOO Max Cold 100 by the way)

Any thoughts?


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## Jim (Jan 6, 2010)

Bosshogg,
I have nothing to add, But can you make your avatar Bigger or show us that picture? I missed it if you posted it. That thing is a pig.

your avatar can be 140 wide max(we just found out) :LOL2:


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## BossHogg (Jan 6, 2010)

There ya go Jim.

My buddy took the pic with his cell phone, and he had it on "email" settings. :shock: As a result it gets very pixelated. I ran straight out afterward and bought a new camera for the tackle box.
He was caught this past Nov 21st from a 9 acre lake here in N.E. Ohio on a spinnerbait. Measured approx 21-22". The livewell had a scale across the top but it maxed out at 16" and a bunch of his tail hung over the end. Didn't have a scale either (that's on the shopping list) but I'd guess 6-6.5 ish. He's not the biggest, but I'm guessing nobody in that little lake messes with him.


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## Jim (Jan 6, 2010)

6 seems a little conservative to me. Nice fish none the less.


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## Bugpac (Jan 7, 2010)

Here is how my livewell works, I got a aerator pump that feeds it off the transom, It has a overflow pipe to keep the water level set, at the bottom there is a plug, look at it as a t fitting, unplug and she drains, Then i got a seperate aerator threw the sidewall, that recirculates back to the top with a spray head, no valves or anything. The pumps have to have water in them to prime, If you mount them correctly they will prime up on there own, IMO it is best to have a natural drain to remove water from the livewell. I like the aerator pumps much better than a standard bildge in a livewell.. the inside can be kept clean just as you have it drawn..


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## Bugpac (Jan 7, 2010)

After looking at your drawing again, I got your question now... Will the pumps run in forward and reverse, I dont believe they will? 

The recirculating pump will not pickup water from the top and pump it back threw the fill pump to pump out.. Unless you primed it...

Your better off to fill to the top side, recirc to the topside then make a valve to close off the topside so it pumps back out...


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## BossHogg (Jan 7, 2010)

Thanks Bugpac, but your first post was working off the correct understanding of what I'm asking. I came up with this layout in an effort to avoid 3 things.. 1) cutting another hole in the hull. 2) having pumps &/or plumbing inside the livewell. 3) Having to sling a bilge around whenever I want to fill or drain. I included two pumps in my design because I couldn't find any evidence that aerator pumps can be run in reverse. the only time Pump two would run is for pump-out. Pump 1 fills and recirculates.

Here's the hull port I was refering to.. It's obviously below the water line.







Here's the area it would all be mounted in..






Without consideration of priming or overflow, I'm very confident it would work, but I know little to anything of how these pumps operate. Are they self-priming? I suspect this boat will have a very shallow draft and I am concerned about whether or not they will "pull" water up to themselves if you turn it on and the water in the line only comes part way up to the pump. Put another way, does the plumbing and pumps all need to be below the water line so that when you put the boat into the water, the lines all fill up with water and the pumps are automatically "primed"? How necessary is an overflow? I'm not sure how to go about implementing an overflow, but I'm not completely convinced I'd need one.

Here's a layout that's been updated for clarity.






Thanks again!


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## Bugpac (Jan 7, 2010)

I got ya now... Do you have the pumps now? I would try to pump water out threw a pump to make sure it will go, as far as I know there isnt any checking device built into them... You definitely have to have water in the pump housing for it to prime on its own tho..


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## BossHogg (Jan 8, 2010)

No, I don't have the pumps yet. I wanted to make sure I knew what I needed before running out and buying the necessary supplies. I did order the cooler though as that will determine my framing to a degree.

It seems that so long as my fill pump is below the water line and pump-out pump is below the bottom of the livewell, I should be good to go.

Oh, by the way, I thought I'd pass this on.. I found this site that offers all the parts you need for your livewell plumbing piece by piece. Pricing seems VERY reasonable too. Probably a lot cheaper than any kit from BPS or wherever. They have everything you can imagine and then some. I found it helpful to just browse.


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## Crappie Stalker (Jan 9, 2010)

I am trying to avoid adding holes in my boat as well and this is what I have in mind to try. It is unproven, but here it is.
To fill livewell,open valve 1,valves 2&3 closed, Turn on pump 1
After filling, Turn off pump 1 and close valve1 and open valve 2 
Pump 2 is now used to recirculate your livewell water.
To drain the livewell, close valve 2 and open valve 3
Pump 2 is now used to pump out livewell.




I do not know how easily you can pump out livewell with drain below waterline. you may need to run drain line over the transom instead of teeing into the line between hull and pump 1. Also, If the livewell was close to the back of the boat, you could almost use one pump to do everything.
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.


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## Bugpac (Jan 9, 2010)

IMO it should pump out fine under the water line.


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## BossHogg (Jan 9, 2010)

Stalker, Looks good to me, but don't let that influence you in any way.. lol I'm a total noob when it comes to this stuff.
It looks like we are thinking pretty much the same thing except you're circulation runs off the drain pump rather than the fill.
I don't think there would be a problem with pumping out below the water line. If it were a gravity drain, then it would only drain to the water level.

The more I think about this, the more I think I'd like to implement some sort of an overflow, but I'm clueless as to how to implement one. Might have to go with some baffling that leads back into the recirculate loop. It would really suck to get distracted by something, leave the fill on too long and have a boat full of water. I was browsing BPS, and saw a couple of float switches. Was thinking this might be handy too. I'm sure there's a couple of different ways it can be accomplished.

Anyway, I added the design (minus overflow) into my sketch just to get an idea of scale and layout specific to the area I will have to work with.


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## 2007NNBS (Jan 11, 2010)

hey boss hog i sent you a message...what software did you use to create the drawing


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## BossHogg (Jan 11, 2010)

Google SketchUp was the best free option I could find. There are others out there, but some will not allow you to save, others won't allow you to dimension, etc..
It's fairly intuitive if you have at least some CAD experience and probably still is even if you don't. As I said before, I'm no CAD master by any stretch, but I do have a little Autocad and Solid Works experience and I worked with ESPRIT regularly for a number of years. As it was, it took me a good solid day to get comfortable with it. I had to start over a couple of times before I was somewhat satisfied with what I had.
Also, there's a lot of on-line help available. Hope this helps and GL!


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## Bugpac (Jan 11, 2010)

I say for an overflow, drill another hole...


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## danmyersmn (Jan 11, 2010)

IMHO your making it too complicated to try and not drill holes. I would suggest drilling a hole to fill and drill a hole for drain. You can then pump into the sprayer, and have a gravity drain that has a 2-way valve that can either drain or recirculate. 

You don't need an overflow. You can let the livewell fill and overlow into your bilge if you like. 

Based on your original design this is what I would do if I was trying to stick to your plan.

Move Pump 1 to where Valve 1 is. Remove valve 2, valve 3 and pump 2. Place a 3-way valve at the T. Use a livewell timer that has on, off and timed on/off. Then you can use one timer/switch and one pump to handle both pump out and recirculate depending on what position your three way is in.

You will also need to get a self priming pump. The standard "live-well" pump is not self priming and any air in the line between the pump and the water will air lock it.


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## BossHogg (Jan 11, 2010)

Dan/Bug - I am in reluctant agreement. Lol.. My buddy and I went round and round about it Sat night over many beers. He won. :roll: I'll never hear the end of it.

In the end, it will not only simplify the design, but free up time on the water that would otherwise be spent baby-sitting my livewell.

So I have a thru hole mid-boat below the water line and a hole for the bilge near the transom above the water line. Now it's back to the drawing board to try to come up with a layout that will utilize both. If not, I will drill another hole as needed. 

The livewell cooler came in today. It has a built-in drain that has standard garden hose OD threads on it. I might try to incorporate that if the flow rate is high enough.


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## BossHogg (Feb 18, 2010)

Well, it's been a while.. between finding the time and the $ required, things have been a slow-go, but there has been _some_ progress.

I have managed to pick up a bunch of the things I'll be needing though. 3 "31" Batteries, on-board charger, switch panels, aerator timer, seat bases, etc.. On that note, I thought I'd mention that if you guys make a shopping list and plan on getting any of it at BPS, you can go to the store, get a BPS Visa and get 10% off your first purchase. I saved just shy of $100. (almost one of my 3 batteries free!)

As far as the livewell thing goes, I've been working with flowRite on my design, and I'm just going to get everything I need from them. Gonna go with their system #3 and integgrate it into the 70qt cooler. Very slick system. Pump, plumbing, valve, fittings, and all hoses are estimated at $160. Will be ordering VERY soon as I need to install it before I can do a whole lot more on my framing layout.

Decking material will be Ramp Armor. It's a composite material made by Iten Ind. that's used to deck ramp surfaces in outdoor skate parks. It's UV neutralized, doesn't absorb water, and it's strong as what. I have a sample piece that's 1/4" x 8" x 12", and I can't bend it. I think 1/4" sheet will be fine, but I still might upgrade to 3/8" just to be on the safe side. I have some spans that are 16" centers. The 1/4" runs $75 per 4' x 8' sheet... Well, for me anyway. My Mother works there and they're local; I can get "2nds". =D> 

Anyway, here's where the framing is...

Bow deck seat box with tackle hatch framing on either side.. there's still some work to do on this section as there will be a battery tray on each side in front of the tackle hatches and I couldn't tie the two together until I finished my main deck.





Another of front section with extension mocked-up and in place. There will be a sq tube that drops from under this down to the main deck level. The livewell will be nestled up against the "wall" that will be created, then will be framed around at the same level as the flange that remains from the middle bench that was removed.





Main deck area showing stern seat box





Close up of main deck seat box support





Some random thoughts..
Don't use a cut-off wheel. I thought it'd work great, but only makes a massive mess. A power miter saw with a regular carbide tipped blade works great.
When riveting, whenever possible, deburr both sides of your drilled hole. If you clamp your pieces together real tight first, the inner faces won't need it, but the entrance and exit still will.. especially the exit side. It makes the joint a lot stronger.
Even with a power miter saw, it's still very difficult to get each joint perfectly square. Cut a little long and "massage" it in where load bearing posts need good fluch contact.
Aluminum angle is not excatly 90deg. It's an acute angle. More like 87deg or so. This can impact squarenesss. Just be sure to rivet in an order that will allow your supports to remain square after fastening.
The inside corner of the angle has a small radius in it.. probably about .050" or so If you are looking for good, solid, flush contact (for ideal weight distribution maybe), be sure to break the edge of the piece that will be on the inside of the angle.
Don't just cut and start riveting. You want to basically do a complete layout, then start riveting from the inside out, otherwise, you may end up with a situation where you are unable to drill a hole for lack of drill clearance.

I'm sure most of you guys already know that stuff, I just thought I'd throw it out there in case there are more noobs like me. :wink:

Tight Lines!


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## Nick Jones (Feb 18, 2010)

Your build looks great and I think you got a good deal on your boat. 

You weren't joking about building your frame out of aluminum. Top Quality!!!!!


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## Nussy (Feb 18, 2010)

I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of this build!!! Love the aluminum framing.....that's got to be a little pricey...but you won't ever have to worry about it rotting.


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## dyeguy1212 (Feb 18, 2010)

Very professional looking =D>


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## Rat (Feb 19, 2010)

Here is how I am going to route my livewell piping and wiring. this way only uses one pump and a three-way switch.




Filling:
Valve 1 - closed
Valve 2- open
Valve 3 - open

Recirc:
Valve 1 - open
Valve 2 - closed
Valve 3 - closed

Drain:
Valve 1 - open
Valve 2 - open
Valve 3 - closed

Transfer:
Valve 1 - closed
Valve 2 - open
Valve 3 closed
Water exits through overflow, overflow should be 1.5-2 times the inlet pipe size

For power drain using the pump you will need a 4 th valve installed downstream of the bypass Tee

You could also get real fancy and install electric three-way valves and have it all switched from the panel, no turning manual valves.


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## russ010 (Feb 19, 2010)

Rat said:


> Here is how I am going to route my livewell piping and wiring. this way only uses one pump and a three-way switch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




wow, you just cleared up a lot for me... 

email me when you get it installed so I can see how you have it with the actual pieces!


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## BossHogg (Feb 19, 2010)

I just got off the phone with Flow-Rite and ordered their system 3. I decided after all the messing around, I could just order it all in a package and ready for install. It's not really meant for a cooler mod though. I'll need to c'bore the outside surface of the cooler to get the wall down to 1/2" cross-section, but that's really about the only inconvenience (probably lots of silicone goop to seal it all up after). 800gph pump and all, it was a couple hundred bucks, but I'll only need 1 pump, and won't have to mess with turning valves everytime I want to pump in fresh water, recirc, pump out, etc.. I figure screw it, in 6 months I will have forgotten about the $200, but if my livewell is a pain in the ass, it'll be bug me every single time out. :wink: 

Another option might be to just order their 3 way valve and actuator and build the rest yourself. That would probably only be about $50. Check out the pdf's on the valve and pump-out aerator head designs.

To add to what Rat was saying, in addition to your overflow being larger than your fill, it should also be placed about 2" lower in the livewell. The water level will still rise above the entire overflow opening.. this is according to Roger Miller, the marine systems specialist at Flow-Rite who was extremely helpful. I emailed him links to my mod and he was happy to go over everything with me step by step and answered all my questions.


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## BossHogg (Mar 7, 2010)

Well, I'm nearing the point in my conversion where I will need to be laying my decking and I had a quick question for you guys. I'm kind of stuck when trying to figure out an order of operation. If cut and fasten the decking panels prior to carpeting them, the screw heads won't show, but then I'll have to carpet after installation, and I won't be able to wrap and fasten the carpet under the edges, which I REALLY want to be able to do. I'm hoping to keep it as clean looking as possible. If I carpet the deck panels outside the boat, I can wrap all the edges, but then I will have screw heads exposed, and that would bug me something fierce.
I won't have access to the underside of the framing once the deck is on either, so..

I had thought about carpeting the decking panels outside the boat, laying them in place on the framing, and then wherever I want to install a decking screw, I could use a utility knife and cut a little "X" in the carpet, screw it down, then glue the little flaps back down. Only thing with that is that should I ever decide I'd like to remove the screw for any reason, the head would be filled with glue. Basically, it'd be permanent unless I just went crazy with a sawz-all. :shock: 

I guess another option would be Hydro-Turf. That just gets glued down right?

I apologize if this has been addressed before and for the overall noobness of the question.


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## dyeguy1212 (Mar 7, 2010)

Nothing you can really do about it if you can;t access the bottom of the deck when its in place. You just have to make a decision.

And yes, hydro turf just gets glued down.


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## Nussy (Mar 8, 2010)

I carpeted mine outside the boat and then screwed it down. On my first build I used a small headed screw and for the most part the screw head is buried in the carpet. On the mod I'm currently doing I did a couple things to avoid screw heads. On the bow deck I screwed from the underside through the hatches. Basically I pre-drilled holes in my aluminum bracing where I wanted to screw the deck down and then screw from the underside through the hatches. In the midsection I decided not to screw the deck down because the console will old it down. 

Just my two cents worth but I think you can get a nicer carpeting job outside the boat. No need to workabout tight corne cuts and having the carpet pull up eventually. You won't need too many screw to hold the deck down, anyway. Gravity will do most of the work. You just don't want it to slide around.


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## 270Handiman (Mar 15, 2010)

Another option for screwing down the decking is to use stainless screws with the stainless finish washers for a nice professional look. They are exposed, but the finish washers make for a nice "finished" look. This way, removing the decking is quick and easy.

Here's a couple suppliers that had pictures of what I'm talking about.

https://www.mertons.com/Fastenings/finish-washers.html

https://www.greenboatstuff.com/ststfiwa316s.html

Just my 2 cents!


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## dyeguy1212 (Mar 15, 2010)

Good call 270


I'm doing something similar, but its way easier. Home Depot and lowes carry a brand of screws call Teks. Their lath screws (you can get both wood and self-tapping styles) have a finish washer look to them, but they're all one solid piece. After deciding it would make my life easier just to deal with screw heads, I decided I'd go with these again.

The pic below is of the type of screw I'm talking about. However, I've only seen them sold in stainless steel... something I doubt anyone will complain about :wink:


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## Nussy (Mar 15, 2010)

I screwed my deck down today with #6 screws and they buried into the carpet perfectly. I challenge anyone to find them......I just hope I don't ever have to removed the wood again. In all honesty, I think a lot depends on the carpet. I used the Cabela's Deluxe Marine carpet and it is a lot thicker than the stuff at Home Depot or Lowe's so the screws hide really easily. I'm be done tomorrow hopefully and I'll post some pics.


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## dyeguy1212 (Mar 15, 2010)

I was just thinking that nussy. Its all about high high the fibers sit off of the backing. The lowes crap is paper thin... you actually can see through it when you hold it up to the light :idea:


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## BossHogg (Apr 3, 2010)

Well, Next to nothing was accomplished for almost a month, but I'm back underway. The framing is very near completion(OMG.. what a chore. Can you say "overkill"? lmao), the livewell system is completed, the bulk of the electrical system is going in later this morning, and I have 5 sheets of the 1/4" composite decking material I wrote about earlier. I need carpet, hinges, and the deck fasteners.
Nussy- I think I'm going to take your advice and pay a little more for the more plush carpet. It'll bug me to no end if my deck ends up looking like a pair of 70's studded jeans or some crap like that.

I did find these screws though and I think they will be just the ticket.. https://www.mcfeelys.com/product/10...ad-410-Stainless-Steel-Trailer-Decking-Screws It's either those or.. https://www.mcfeelys.com/product/12...ad-410-Stainless-Steel-Trailer-Decking-Screws I'm leaning toward the wafer heads though for both the head size and because of available length. They will have increased visibility, but I'm hoping with the thicker carpet they will still be relatively hidden. I might buy a box of each and try them both then pick one though.

I'll get some fresh pics up very soon Dye. :lol:


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## chris8126 (Apr 3, 2010)

What is the best place to get aluminum angle and sheet. Are there any problems with using square tubing with framing or is angle just easier to rivet together.


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## BossHogg (Apr 4, 2010)

chris8126 said:


> What is the best place to get aluminum angle and sheet. Are there any problems with using square tubing with framing or is angle just easier to rivet together.



I bought mine from a local metal supply company called _Speedy Metals_. _Copper and Brass Sales_ is another place that sells the tube and angle, and I think they may have distribution points all over the country. These are examples of places to buy it new though. If you want to spend a little more time and energy looking around, you may be able to get it cheaper from a scrap yard. Check with companies that buy scrap metal. You'll save $ that way if you're able to find one. I have about $340 in tube and angle so far, so yes, it can really add up fast. If you buy it though, make sure you tell them you want the "square" stuff. I think it's 6063. It also comes in 6061, but that grade has a large internal radius and a big external radius on each end of the angle. The cross-section looks something like this..





Not very good for building with

I used a combination of both sq tube and angle. The angle is cheaper by the foot. It's lighter. You don't need the added strength of tube in all places. If you want to connect two tubes on the same plane and make a "T" joint, how would you connect them? I also (as others have done on here) used the angle to make little 1.5" brackets.

Hope this helps!


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## chris8126 (Apr 4, 2010)

Thanks for the help bosshogg, I also was wondering what size and thickness angle and tubing you had used and what type and size of rivets. Sorry for all the questions, your framing looked great and I wanted to do something similar. I had thought about welding all the joints but I think rivets would be better. My spool gun on my mig welder is bulky and welding aluminum is a bit tougher than I thought. I have used a friends big daddy rivet gun with 1/4" rivets but the gun is pretty big to get in some parts of the boat. How did the composite floor work, could be worth looking into if you had good luck. I would love to see some pics of it in the boat. Thanks for your help.


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## BossHogg (Apr 4, 2010)

I used 1.5"x1.5"x.125" wall for both the tube and the angle.

The rivets I used are 3/16" aluminum pop rivets with a grip of .125" thru .250" or so. Just make sure to lay out your framing in such a way that doesn't require you to rivet through more than 2 plates at once.

I ran into many situations where I had "boxed" myself out of riveting by not following the seemingly simple rule of building from the bottom-up and inside-out. I was boxed-out due to lack of clearance for either the drill or rivet gun or both, and needed to drill out some rivets to remove a piece or three so I could get at what was needed. I'm pushing 400 rivets. Last I knew, there was a guy selling them on Ebay for $20 for 250 rivets. My local hardware store sells them for $7 for 50.

I did a little drilling and sawing on the composite decking tonight and it cuts like butter. Once I can get out there and tidy up a bit and I finish up a couple of small remaining framing tasks, I'll post some fresh pics.


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## BossHogg (Mar 1, 2017)

Well, here we are almost 7 years later, and I'm embarrassed to say that shortly after my last post, I caught the golf bug again. So that was the effective end of my conversion project (I can only obsess over one thing at a time). Hey. but at least I got my handicap down to an 8.3! 8) Anyway, here's a rough idea of where it sits right now, although I do have several of the hatch lids made and carpeted that aren't shown in the pics. I used flush-mount hatch handles and stainless steel piano hinge.













As you can see here, this thing is all aluminum. Completely water proof and sturdy as hell!




The material used to mount the livewell switch below is an example of the skateboard ramp composite material that was used for the decking. Also completely waterproof and UV resistant!




Now to the reason for the post update...

The wife is screaming to get this thing out of here. Either put it in storage or sell it. I'm leaning toward putting it into storage, but a coworker is interested in possibly buying it as-is; he's a handy guy and finishing the last few little things won't be a problem for him. This sale includes all materials (far more than enough to finish the project up), and I have absolutely no clue what a fair price might be and I'm hoping some of you can help me out.

So what do you guys think? What do you think the market will bear? What's a good price that ensures we both get a fair deal? Maybe one price with the outboard and one without? I can always sell that separately.

Thanks in advance for any help / advice you can provide!


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## dgmckenna (Jul 1, 2018)

Just joined the forum and found BossHogg's fabulous project! He references a composite skateboard ramp material used for the decking. What is that and where can you get it? Thanks!


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## LDUBS (Jul 1, 2018)

dgmckenna said:


> Just joined the forum and found BossHogg's fabulous project! He references a composite skateboard ramp material used for the decking. What is that and where can you get it? Thanks!




Google "Ramp Armor" & "Skatelite". These are composite sheets used to make skateboard ramps, pipes, half tubes, or whatever they are called. They are very pricey compared to ply but then you are paying for some high tech material.


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## dgmckenna (Jul 2, 2018)

Thanks LDUBS. Found it. Is this material lighter than plywood? And how far can you span without sagging under body weight? I don't mind paying more for a lighter and waterproof material.


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## LDUBS (Jul 3, 2018)

Oh boy, that I don't know. Maybe check with the mfg. I expect it would be heavy, but that is just a wild guess. You might also want to search here on tin boats for different floor materials folks have used.


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