# Force 40hp...another problem, won't start!



## euroshowoff (Oct 13, 2015)

So on top of the first cylinder not wanting to fire a few weeks ago, now she refuses to start. I'll post a link below, but the first video is with a brand new batter that I just purchased. (had not been charged previously to installing). The second video is when I am attempt to jump it with my truck. Any ideas on where I should start? I should also note that the trim up is not working, relay clicks but does not want to trim up. Trim down works without a problem. 


Installed a new battery: https://goo.gl/photos/pzb47iK8KoLq3CWg7 

Jumping it with my truck: https://goo.gl/photos/5g5vWKUkeJoWBw366


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## DaleH (Oct 13, 2015)

I'd get a spark tester, Force CDIs were notorious for intermittent operation, as in one say she'd start up and the next day it wouldn't ...


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## euroshowoff (Oct 13, 2015)

DaleH said:


> I'd get a spark tester, Force CDIs were notorious for intermittent operation, as in one say she'd start up and the next day it wouldn't ...



Motor lost all power while out on the water one day, so thats when I tested the plugs, old school method to basically touch the plug to a good ground while cranking the motor, thats how i found out the top cyclinder had no spark. that was a few weeks ago. after testing, the motor will not crank even with a new battery. can the plugs be the cause that the motor will not crank?


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## SumDumGuy (Oct 13, 2015)

DaleH said:


> I'd get a spark tester, ...



^^^


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## euroshowoff (Oct 13, 2015)

SumDumGuy said:


> DaleH said:
> 
> 
> > I'd get a spark tester, ...
> ...



Thanks but wouldn't the motor need to crank before the plugs become an issue? How can I test for spark when the motor won't turn over? 

The gear on top of the starter only pulsates and does not turn the flywheel.


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## DaleH (Oct 13, 2015)

euroshowoff said:


> The gear on top of the starter only pulsates and does not turn the flywheel.


Your starter could have worn brushes, is being engergized, but is not making enough contact to use all the amps.

Try this ... have someone rap (hardwood block or plastic mallet) on the starter housing while you start it. The rapping helps the brushes make contact. That's a sure sign it needs a rebuild. 

Remember not to crank, crank on starters - take it easy on them and allow time to rest & recover (cool off).


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## euroshowoff (Oct 14, 2015)

DaleH said:


> euroshowoff said:
> 
> 
> > The gear on top of the starter only pulsates and does not turn the flywheel.
> ...



Thanks. is there a way to bypass the starter cables to rule those out?


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## DaleH (Oct 14, 2015)

Do a resistance check! I had a boat where I ended up replacing the battery cables and battery switch, but it would crank (V6) ... just not provide enough volts to light off the computer ECM.


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## euroshowoff (Oct 14, 2015)

Should this cable be replaced?


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## DaleH (Oct 14, 2015)

euroshowoff said:


> Should this cable be replaced?


The terminal end is broken, but only a resistance check can confirm the integrity or corrosion built up inside the wiring strands.


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## SumDumGuy (Oct 15, 2015)

Can you easily pull the starter motor? If so hook it to a battery external and see if it spins.


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## euroshowoff (Oct 15, 2015)

SumDumGuy said:


> Can you easily pull the starter motor? If so hook it to a battery external and see if it spins.



I haven't had a chance to, but I was gonna try jumper cables and connect the starter motor to the battery on my truck to see if it spins.


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## Moedaddy (Oct 17, 2015)

DaleH said:


> I'd get a spark tester, Force CDIs were notorious for intermittent operation, as in one say she'd start up and the next day it wouldn't ...



Hmmm, I had a 1997, 40hp Force for several years and never had this problem. Guess maybe I had a good one?


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## euroshowoff (Oct 18, 2015)

Have it hooked up to a new charged battery. Cleaned the connections on the starter cables on the battery side but it just won't crank. I did notice that the gear that turns the flywheel is stuck in the upright position, is that normal?


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## Johnny (Oct 18, 2015)

on my 35hp and 50hp Force - - - *NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO*
no bueno - the bendix is stuck. If it does start in that position, it will toast your starter.
drop some oil on the shaft, turn it by hand, loosen it up. Tap it with something to get it down.
Then, after you get it all loosened up and working properly, 
REMEMBER that moving things need a regular maintenance.
it should only be in the up position when engaging to start.
then, it goes back down to below the flywheel position.


It should look like this 50hp starter - you should be able to
pick up the bendix freely up and down.

oh, and if after you get the bendix all loosened up and it still sticks in the up position,
you may have a bad bendix, or the starter is loose and misaligned with the flywheel.


and my Dos Centavos on replacing the battery cables - my vote is _*YES*_. (for both).
to err on the side of caution. They may look good on the outside,
but can be pretty bad on the inside. After you get the new cables,
cut the old ones open . . . . then report back with your findings.




.


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## euroshowoff (Oct 18, 2015)

Thanks it managed to go back down, and I applied some marine grease to the shaft now. It does turn freely and go up and down only when engaged 

I did notice that the negative side of the battery is getting really hot when cranking and starts to smoke, is that because I'm not allowing it to rest when I crank? I'm only cranking for a few seconds.


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## Johnny (Oct 18, 2015)

Edit: the battery is smoking or the starter ???


I have had only one starter smoke like that. then, one day, it caught fire......
well, not actually fire, but a smoking stinking mess that burned all the internals.
Smell of the starter when it is hot - if it stinks like burnt really bad,
I would start looking for a new starter when you have the extra funds.

Don't know what to tell you if it is the _battery_ that is hot and smoking..... never experienced that one.
Many of us have run trolling motors on the cranking battery without any issues. 
And I am sure they draw as much if not more amps than a starter (?)......
If you can, check the fluid levels in the battery. If it is a sealed battery, you may
have some serious stuff going on inside of it.

jus my Dos Centavos


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## DaleH (Oct 18, 2015)

I recall that only light viscosity oils should be used to lubricate bendix starter shafts, not the gear or teeth. I always used a fine oil like that made for Singer sewing machines.


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## euroshowoff (Oct 18, 2015)

So I tried bypassing the solenoid to test the starter. Assuming I did this correctly. I wired a positive lead off the battery and tapped the red/yellow connection on the solenoid to attempt a start. I'm still experiencing the same behavior for a very weak crank. Did I do this test correctly. Did this bypass the solenoid and send power directly to the starter?


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## Johnny (Oct 18, 2015)

If going through the solenoid does not work,
use a heavy wire or jumper cable and go from the battery positive terminal
directly to the starter positive bolt. Don't touch anything else.
It should jump up and try to start the motor. With the motor out of gear, of course.
Then, you an focus on (1) your boat battery cables and (2) the solenoid.
I am the furthest out of any kind electrical know-how, but, this is what 
I have done in the past to narrow down the gremlins.
The most aggravating things in boat issues are the fuel delivery and electrical !!!!!

good luck


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## Texas Prowler (Oct 18, 2015)

Try connecting the battery negative post straight to the starter metal housing. Then tap the yellow/ red connection again. This will be the best method of ruling out Any bad wiring.


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## kofkorn (Oct 19, 2015)

From your description, you only bypassed the key switch. 

1) The Red/yellow wire on the solenoid is the connection which activates the solenoid. So all you did was bypass the key switch and activate the solenoid directly. (The wire gauge you used is fine for this purpose). The starter still pulled its power through your normal battery cables. 

2) If you were planning on bypassing the solenoid and going directly to the starter, the wire that you are using is FAR too small. You should be looking at using nothing less than a 10 ga wire (very cheap jumper cables) preferably a 6 ga wire. Most standard battery cables are 4 or 2 ga. 

3)If you are jumping directly to the battery, make sure you connect SECURELY to the post on the starter FIRST and then tap or connect to the POS battery post. When you jump the starter, you'll pull between 60 and 100 amps, which is a very standard welding amperage. If you connect to the post on the starter last, you will cause arcing which will have a very good chance to melt the threads on the post. Once you do that, it will be VERY difficult (if even possible) to remove the nut from the post. Keep the arcing on the battery post instead. It's far more forgiving. 

So if you really want to eliminate your wiring as a problem:

-Remove the kill switch lanyard, place the ignition key in the "OFF" position.
-Disconnect the normal battery cables.
-Using a heavy cable, connect the negative battery post to the frame of the starter (one of the bolts is good enough)
-Using one end of another heavy cable connect to the starter post
-Lastly connect the other end of the cable to the Positive battery post. Just be warned that it will spark pretty good. The starter should start spinning immediately and will remain turning until the cable is disconnected

Good luck!


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## euroshowoff (Oct 19, 2015)

kofkorn said:


> From your description, you only bypassed the key switch.
> 
> 1) The Red/yellow wire on the solenoid is the connection which activates the solenoid. So all you did was bypass the key switch and activate the solenoid directly. (The wire gauge you used is fine for this purpose). The starter still pulled its power through your normal battery cables.
> 
> ...



this makes much more sense, thanks for the info.

probably won't be able to work much this week, but i'll post my findings.


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## JL8Jeff (Oct 22, 2015)

Sounds like you have a lot of resistance if the battery cable is getting hot and starting to smoke. Clean all your connections really well, make sure you have a good ground that is clean. You may want to even pull the spark plugs out of the motor to see if it helps to crank it over easier. If the rings are sticking it could cause the starter to work too hard to crank it over. If the starter isn't turning easily you will overtax the battery and wiring. Your neg battery cable could be damaged now if it got so hot it started to smoke, that should be replaced. I had a similar issue with the Chevy 350 in my jet boat and smoked the cable because I think there was surface rust in the cylinder walls making it very difficult to crank over. I replaced the battery cables after getting it fired up.


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## euroshowoff (Oct 22, 2015)

Thanks I ordered a new set of starter cables and it's coming with a solenoid as well. I saw some voltage drop when testing so hopefully that solves this issue.


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## Johnny (Oct 22, 2015)

if you don't have a use for the used cables, 
cut them open and see how they look.


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## navybluejacket (Oct 25, 2015)

Timing.


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## euroshowoff (Oct 31, 2015)

Had some time to replace the cables today also found out I had a bad tilt up relay. 

Decided to remove spark plugs and crank the motor, strong crank was the result

Then decided to put the plugs back in and attempt to start the motor - same behavior. Very weak crank. 

So motor will crank without the plugs in but hesitates when I put the plugs in.


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## rednecknproud21 (Oct 31, 2015)

You need a new starter. That windings are weak that's why you are not getting the torque to turn the motor with the plugs in.


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## euroshowoff (Oct 31, 2015)

rednecknproud21 said:


> You need a new starter. That windings are weak that's why you are not getting the torque to turn the motor with the plugs in.



Anyway to test that?


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## rednecknproud21 (Oct 31, 2015)

You can check resistance on the starter windings with a ohmmeter.


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## euroshowoff (Oct 31, 2015)

rednecknproud21 said:


> You can check resistance on the starter windings with a ohmmeter.



Hmmm, I'll give this a try. What should it read?


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