# Muzzle Loader Forum



## Jim

I have been bitten by the muzzle loading bug. I joined the frontier muzzloading forum and it is *legit*, Just passing it along to all you muzzle loaders out there. There is a wealth of knowledge there and it seems like a great group of folks like we have here. :beer:

Jim

https://www.frontiermuzzleloading.com


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## overboard

I think I'll tell my one buddy to join. He flinches so bad that we have never found a hole in the target! #-o :lol: 
Come to think of it, I also flinch on occasion, shooting them can be fun and sometime challenging, especially with a flintlock.
Thanks for the link, although I'm pretty well set up there's always something to learn from the guys that are at a much higher level.
At one time I rode to work with a guy that was really into blackpowder; he provided me with quite a bit of helpful info.


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## Jim

overboard said:


> I think I'll tell my one buddy to join. He flinches so bad that we have never found a hole in the target! #-o :lol:



Sounds EXACTLY like me. My last hunt still haunts me, I honestly think I shot from the hip when I saw the doe walk by and completely missed. :LOL2:


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## DaleH

FWIW flintlock shooting has made me a much better offhand shot for all of my shooting disciplines! Yesterday at a traditional black powdah shoot, I used a circa 1670 club butt flint smoothbore musket ('replica', wears no rear sight, in 62-caliber w/ 48" barrel) ... and my score was only 10-pts less the top rifle score.

Once you go flint ... you'll be hooked even MORE!


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## KMixson

I don't need to get hooked on another type of firearm. I have enough addictions as it is.


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## overboard

They can humble you!
Here's what happened to another buddy this year, who has shot quite a few deer with a flintlock.
Deer #1- Missed a head and neck shot at around 130 yd. 
Deer #2- Standing pretty close, and when he went to cock the gun he noticed the flint was really crooked; went to straighten it and it fell on the ground along with the leather that holds it; found the flint but couldn't find the piece of leather. Deer gone!
Deer #3- Standing pretty close, and when he fired there was no spark. Deer took off like a rocket! That was only the second shot from a new flint, and he figured that maybe the frizzen was getting bad.
Plus one morning when he got out of the truck, he slipped and fell on some snow covered ice and broke the sling stud off the ramrod ferrule. He had a bad year!!!


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## DaleH

overboard said:



> They can humble you!


Yes, they can ... but all you mentioned were operator error :shock: ...

How can one ever pass up the fine lines of a real arm like this one?


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## Alphawolf

Not for nothing but there is also this site

https://traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.org/forum


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## JMichael

DaleH said:


> overboard said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can humble you!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they can ... but all you mentioned were operator error :shock: ...
> 
> *How can one ever pass up the fine lines of a real arm like this one?*
Click to expand...

Oh that's simple to do if you like to eat regularly and you count on what you kill. :lol:


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## overboard

JMichael said:


> DaleH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> overboard said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can humble you!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they can ... but all you mentioned were operator error :shock: ...
> 
> *How can one ever pass up the fine lines of a real arm like this one?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh that's simple to do if you like to eat regularly and you count on what you kill. :lol:
Click to expand...

 :LOL2: TRUE!
Actually my buddy is pretty good with one and has shot numerous deer with it, but this just seemed to be a #-o #-o #-o year for him.
He also had a chance with the rifle, I think he said his glasses were fogged up. He is a good hunter and he shot some nice buck when we went to Maine, but it just seems like everything went wrong for him this year.


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## Lowe 2070 CC

This is what is considered a primitive weapon in Mississippi and Louisiana! 

Single shot rifle .35 caliber or larger with an exposed hammer!


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## Jim

:LOL2:


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## DaleH

Lowe 2070 CC said:


> This is what is considered a primitive weapon in Mississippi and Louisiana!
> 
> Single shot rifle .35 caliber or larger with an exposed hammer!


Cool .... as that makes my 75-caliber matchlock legal  !


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## Lowe 2070 CC

DaleH said:


> Lowe 2070 CC said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what is considered a primitive weapon in Mississippi and Louisiana!
> 
> Single shot rifle .35 caliber or larger with an exposed hammer!
> 
> 
> 
> Cool .... as that makes my 75-caliber matchlock legal  !
Click to expand...


Primitive Weapons
Weapons legal for use during the Primitive Weapons season are all archery equipment and primitive firearms. "Primitive firearms," for the purpose of hunting deer, are defined as single or double-barreled muzzel-loading rifles of at least .38 caliber; OR single shot, breech loading, metallic cartridge rifles (.35 caliber or larger) and replicas, reproductions, or reproductions of those type rifles with an exposed hammer; OR single or double-barreled muzzleloading shotguns, with single ball or slug. All muzzle-loading primitive firearms must use black powder or a black powder substitute with percussion caps. #209 shotgun primers, or flintlock ignition. "Blackpowder substitute" is defined as a substance designed, manufactured, and specifically intended to be used as a propellant in muzzleloading or other black powder firearms, excluding modern smokeless powder. Metallic cartridges may be loaded with either black powder or modern smokeless powder (cartridges purchased at sporting goods stores). Telescopic sights are allowed while hunting with any primitive firearm during the primitive weapon seasons. During any open season on deer with primitive weapons after November 30, a person may use any legal weapon of choice on private lands only, if the person is the title owner of the land, the lessee of the hunting rights on the land, a member of a hunting club leasing the hunting rights on the land, or a guest of a person specified above. If the person is required to have a hunting license, the person must have a primitive weapon license, Sportsman's License, or a Lifetime Sportsman's License.

You are good to go! We'll have a tire tool and monkey wrench season before long!


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## huntinfool

I had a friend offer me his muzzleloader for the last day of the season. I still had a doe tag and could use the meat. 
He ran me through the basics and off we went. 30 mins into the hunt, I had this.


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## DaleH

Wow ... those Regs as written would exclude my matchlock where the ignition is provided by a ... well, lit match, in the form of a length of rope treated w/ a nitrate solution. It burns emberless, similar to a cigarette, but without any visible dropping ash.

Those Regs also exclude a wheel lock firearm. And both of those ignition types, as well as a snaphaunce lock if one gets technical, preclude flintlock ignition. Ah well, we can't have it all, no?

I guess I'll leave my replica 'hand gonne' (75-caliber, 1st 'gun' ever invented) at home ...


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## Lowe 2070 CC

Dale, I will assure you that your matchlock and wheel lock would be more than acceptable if not technically legal. When you make single shot TC Encore with a scope into a "Primitive " weapon because it's a single shot, the purpose is to encourage more harvest.

Actually, you'll note that on privately owned lands you are allowed to use any legal weapon during the "Primitive" season!


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## JMichael

DaleH said:


> Wow ... *those Regs as written would exclude my matchlock *where the ignition is provided by a ... well, lit match, in the form of a length of rope treated w/ a nitrate solution. It burns emberless, similar to a cigarette, but without any visible dropping ash.
> 
> Those Regs also exclude a wheel lock firearm. And both of those ignition types, as well as a snaphaunce lock if one gets technical, preclude flintlock ignition. Ah well, we can't have it all, no?
> 
> I guess I'll leave my replica 'hand gonne' (75-caliber, 1st 'gun' ever invented) at home ...


Why would it be excluded? Caliber too small to meet the requirements?


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## Lowe 2070 CC

JMichael said:


> DaleH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow ... *those Regs as written would exclude my matchlock *where the ignition is provided by a ... well, lit match, in the form of a length of rope treated w/ a nitrate solution. It burns emberless, similar to a cigarette, but without any visible dropping ash.
> 
> Those Regs also exclude a wheel lock firearm. And both of those ignition types, as well as a snaphaunce lock if one gets technical, preclude flintlock ignition. Ah well, we can't have it all, no?
> 
> I guess I'll leave my replica 'hand gonne' (75-caliber, 1st 'gun' ever invented) at home ...
> 
> 
> 
> Why would it be excluded? Caliber too small to meet the requirements?
Click to expand...



"All muzzle-loading primitive firearms must use black powder or a black powder substitute with percussion caps. #209 shotgun primers, or flintlock ignition." 

Percussion Cap, #209 Shotgun Primers, or Flintlock ignition are the only referenced ignition types. Matchlock and wheel lock are not included.


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## DaleH

JMichael said:


> Why would it be excluded? Caliber too small to meet the requirements?


Ha, most calibers of the earlier arms are 62 to 65 and on up to 75 caliber :shock: , so it sure isn't the bore size! 

In fact, I have a historically accurate reproduction of a late 16th century Dutch arm, in 62-caliber with a 48" barrel ... and it is termed a *Boy's Rifle*, due to the small caliber! (Technically though, it is a flint smoothbore fowler (musket), for use with shot or ball or what they used in the F&I War - a handful of shot or 3 buckshot over a large ball). Sorry to go on, but I find the early arms absolutely fascinating! And they can hit accurately too, as at a recent BP woods walk, my score w/ that smoothbore was 3rd place only to the top rifle scores.

Just my $ 0.02, but earlier ignition arms are probably excluded only because they just weren't considered; ignorance I guess, in the purest sense of the word. And as Lowe points out, the Fish & Game Depts themselves are using the primitive seasons to make for bigger harvests! Think about the political scene, it is less .. uhhhh, _inflammatory _to say they have a primitive arm season than it would be for them to propose adding an extra week to the 'rifle' season. Rifles and people that own rifles are 'bad' you know [-X ... don't you realize that :wink: ?


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## JMichael

Oh, I missed that part in the requirements on the ignition source. Although I've only seen video of a wheel lock and have no clue what a matchlock is or how it differs from the others mentioned. I was thinking that all the older stuff was a larger caliber in most cases than the more modern stuff but I thought you might have some of the smaller caliber stuff that I read about being used for small game.


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## DaleH

JMichael said:


> Oh, I missed that part in the requirements on the ignition source. Although I've only seen video of a wheel lock and have no clue what a matchlock is or how it differs from the others mentioned.


The top photo is of an early 1600s matchlock I have - single shot. A length of burning match is paced into that jaw (serpentine) above the pan and when the trigger is pulled, it drops the burning match into the pan. You can't see it clearly, but there is a little sliding door over the pan that can swing to cover the pan - hence being a safety. 

Some earlier matchlocks use a lever in place of a trigger. In tests, matchlocks fire off faster than the other later BP arm ignition types, like flint or percussion - instantaneous! They're a hoot to shoot!

The one below it, which must have been a feat of engineering and craftsmanship waaaay back then ... is a 6-shot revolving matchlock made for the King of France. It shows that even 400+ years ago ... people were thinking and wanted more firepower!


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## Jim

Now that last one is very cool…….


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## Lowe 2070 CC

Very cool.

Technical marvels that modern guns are, the old front stuffers were works of art.


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## WaterWaif

Jim said:


> I have been bitten by the muzzle loading bug. I joined the frontier muzzloading forum and it is *legit*, Just passing it along to all you muzzle loaders out there. There is a wealth of knowledge there and it seems like a great group of folks like we have here. :beer:
> 
> Jim
> 
> https://www.frontiermuzzleloading.com



So, have you taken the final plunge yet and tried to sneak something into the house with a lampshade on it?
To warn you they are like potato chips.
But on the bright side, un like woman you can have more than one favorite and they don't get jealous. :roll: 
If you can find a rendezvous in range check it out. Should be a local club with shoots too.


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## Jim

I might pick up a CVA Optima V2 50 all Black for $189 on Monday. Brand new, guy has 10 of them. Good deal?

https://www.cva.com/CVA-Store-View.php?id=578


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## WaterWaif

Jim said:


> I might pick up a CVA Optima V2 50 all Black for $189 on Monday. Brand new, guy has 10 of them. Good deal?
> 
> https://www.cva.com/CVA-Store-View.php?id=578



I frog around with older styles so am not up to speed on the newer ones.
Patched roud ball in slower twist barrels, America under a younger sky stuff.
Nothing against newer versions.
Here in Mi. certain straight walled rifle cartridges are being allowed in the former shotgun zone but prior to that folks were wringing out the modern inline versions of front loaders with some impressive results.
Depends on what you want to use it for and what era appeals.

With a retail around 300 that's not bad at near a third less, though suggested retail firearm prices are suggested optimistically high in my opinion..
Blackhorn 209 powder users go with a different breech plug(blackthorn 209 QRBP) for about twenty bucks in the Optima. Not saying that would be your choice in powder but a note if you went that route. It has a bigger hole through it.
The CVA Optima V2 50 rifle has some reviews claiming good accuracy and I have not seen complaints on it in limited review.
It's price point affects it's make up, of course. And may be a lesser, not saying poorer version of another model.
An Accura V2 offers more but higher price. Don't quote me without research but different barrel manufacturer on the Accura, though the C.V.A. barrel on the Optima holds it's own just fine.
Trigger adjust-ability on the Optima not a feature but claims are it is a good one and not heavy anyway.
A life time warranty helps and C.V.A. has come a long ways and remains established. 
for a modern piece and a brief look at prices you seem to have a good price.
A scope always going to figure alot in final price but sometimes those on a package deal get changed out due to quality or user preference anyway. A decent one ups the price and a poor one sully's the reputation.


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## Jim

I was originally going to go with the Accura....Buy once, cry once and be done with it. This will probably be a once in a lifetime purchase. Muzzle loader season is 2 weeks per year......Do I need to spend the extra money for the better rifle.....I don't know.


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## JMichael

Jim, I bought a Remington 700, inline 50 cal black powder rifle several years back before all the fluted and stainless hype started. It was my first purchase of a black powder as I had borrowed a rifle to hunt with the previous 2 years. That was several years ago. I keep telling myself that I'm going to spring for the 209 conversion kit for it each year but I never do. I just keep on killing deer with it and it keeps on working. Yes, it would be nice to have one of those breakover, fluted barrel, stainless bla bla bla rifles, but when it comes right down to it, my rifle kills just as well as everyone else. It's my understanding that the reason for fluting a barrel is so that it cools off more/quicker between shots so that following shots are affected. Based on my experience, you ain't likely to have any problems in that area as the deer generally run away at the slightest sound (including misfires) and there's a better than avg chance they're gonna be long gone by the time the smoke clears. And the claims that those new guns can take deer out to 200 yard or farther, well that ain't gonna happen where I hunt because you can't see more than about 125 yards through the woods on the best day.


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## lovedr79

I have a traditions pursuit pro. have had it several years now. I love it! smooth light trigger, light gun, highly accurate. kinda like it more than my .270.


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## jerseyjimk

Another great forum for muzzleloaders is www.modernmuzzleloaders.com Lots of great people and knowledge.


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## Bowhunter1661

If you guys have interest in muzzleloading check out dougsmessageboards.com. Probably the best muzzleloading info you can find. I am not a traditional guy, so I built a custom Remington 700 smokeless muzzleloader. It is essentially a legal rifle here in Illinois., fires a 275 gr bullet at 2750 for. No sabots, bullet and barrel are 45 cal and ride directly on the rifling. I killed a doe this year at 385 yds and have shot it out to 600 yds with .5 MOA accuracy. I am hooked!


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## overboard

NICE, I would be hooked too, that's impressive!


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## Jim

overboard said:


> NICE, I would be hooked too, that's impressive!



This! 

Nice looking gun.


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## juggernot

Jim said:


> I might pick up a CVA Optima V2 50 all Black for $189 on Monday. Brand new, guy has 10 of them. Good deal?
> 
> https://www.cva.com/CVA-Store-View.php?id=578



I have a first generation CVA Optima in .45 cal w 26" barrel. It is a great rifle that is very accurate. The new Optimas are even better w the triggers and the scope mounts, very nice.


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## Bowhunter1661

The smokeless realm is still sort of taboo to some muzzleloading guys. However with the custom aftermarket barrels and with proper safety percautions they can be extremely accurate and a whole bunch of fun! Here's a pic of the monster doe I shot last yearly 385. She had zero teeth left in her head. Also the exit wound! Wicked!!


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## juggernot

Just got a new CVA accura mountain rifle w the nitride barrel, will report back w my impressions after sighting it in.


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## Jim

juggernot said:


> Just got a new CVA accura mountain rifle w the nitride barrel, will report back w my impressions after sighting it in.



Looking forward to it! :beer:


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## BrazosDon

I like the traditional muzzleloaders. I have a Kentucky percussion kit gun in .45cal and a 50cal Thompson Hawkins. Both shoot very good and straight. No complaints. I also like the accessories and leathers that go along with them. I don't know of any clubs in the area but hope to find one soon. Last fall I bought a Raccoon cap and I slept in it all winter and early spring. It felt good since my hair is thinning. Hair on my face and a coonskin cap. What more could ask fore?


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