# Clean burning early carb'd two stroke. E85/BIO Oils



## LonLB (Aug 26, 2011)

This is kind of a plan/discussion stage project really. Not something I'll do till early next summer.....

Everyone freaks about ethanol in their gasoline, and tries to avoid it. There is *NO* avoiding it in some areas.

So I'm going to convert my engine to run E85 exclusively. Yep 85% ethanol.

The current plan is to re-jet the carbs, advance the timing a bit, and shave the head for more compression. Run strictly E85 and mix Klotz TechniPlate 2 stroke oil. A ester based oil with 20% Castor Oil content. MUCH more environmentally friendly than petro based TCW oils, and works with regular gasoline, E85, or pure alcohol, (even nitro methane- must be for R/C guys?)


E85 is pretty common up here, but it is still NOT readily available. So that will be an issue. The compromise will be worth it IMO.


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## ohiobass (Aug 26, 2011)

opcorn:


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## LonLB (Aug 26, 2011)

I mentioned Klotz TechniPlate 2 stroke oil earlier.

Here is a link to it again.
https://www.klotzlube.com/techsheet.asp?ID=44&submit2=View

Here are some quick highlights.
Blends with gas, E-85, alcohol and nitromethane
Marine: 2-Stroke/alcohol/gas; Drag Racing
DIRECTIONS: 2-Stroke pre-mix Do not use in oil injection systems. Air-cooled engines mix at 20:1 to 32:1 Water-cooled engines mix at 32:1 to 50:1
DIRECTIONS: 2-Stroke pre-mix Do not use in oil injection systems. Air-cooled engines mix at 20:1 to 32:1 Water-cooled engines mix at 32:1 to 50:1
Compatibility: Blends with gasoline, E-85, methanol alcohol, Nitromethane Original TechniPlate® and BēNOL® and stays in suspension. Will not blend with petroleum oils or some synthetic lubricants.
Fuel Stability: Will dissolve in gasoline at ratios of 15:1 or greater alcohol at ratios up to 5:1.


Another alternative is Amsoil Products. As I understand it they are also ester based "synthetics"
Meaning zero petroleum products. 
From "OIL BASICS"-7th gear.net Performance Lubricants...........
Group V Esters- produced by reacting an alcohol with an animal or plant based fatty acid into structured polymers (esters, diesters). Superior film strength. Esters are polar and actually cling to metal (crank, cams, rods). They act as a solvent inside the motor, causing cleaner operation. They are the most expensive to produce.


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## Ictalurus (Aug 26, 2011)

Very nice =D> 

I also see some good names for the boat now

Cornhole, Cornholio, Cornstalk, Cornbread, etc... :LOL2: :LOL2:


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## LonLB (Aug 26, 2011)

One important thing to note about the oils. As I dig more and more I find more ester based oils. Some touted as easily biodegradable.
The only concern is it's ability to mix, and stay mixed and in suspension with the high ethanol fuel. The Klotz product specifically states that it is compatible.

Here is the Amsoil outboard specific product. Marketed to allow mixes of 100:1. No mention of being exclusively Ester based, and I did read that/hear that somewhere so I'll look into that more.
https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ato.aspx


With that said, here are a few "_GREEN_ 2 stroke oils.

First is a TC-W3 NMMA approved oil from Renewable Lubricants.
80% Biodegradable in 21 days. Vegetable oil based stock
https://www.renewablelube.com/TDS/2O-Bio-Synthetic%20TC-WII%20%202-Cycle%20Engine%20Oil.pdf

And their website-with other USDA CERTIFIED BIO BASED PRODUCTS
https://www.renewablelube.com/


Terresolve's AquaLogic 450 data sheet......
https://www.terresolve.com/pdf/PDS_AquaLogic%20450.pdf

Also from Terresolve is a "air cooled 2 stroke oil"
This one can be mixed at 50-100:1

International Lubricants LUBEGARD Marine oil.
https://www.lubegard.com/C-290/LUBEGARD+Marine+2+cycle+Oil+%26+Engine+Treatment

Highlights........
Bio based synthetic formulation acts as both a regular 2 cycle oil, and an engine and exhaust system re-conditioner. It rejuvenates engine gaskets and seals while it softens old carbon deposits allowing them to be eliminated through normal operation. It provides the cleanest possible burn, drastically reduces the release of oleo chemicals into the environment, as well as resulting in better idling at lower RPM’s and offers unmatched upper cylinder lubrication.


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## LonLB (Aug 26, 2011)

This is one that will prevent coughing extra oils/fuel out the exhaust.

I claim no credit for this. This is taken from Duckworks Magazine.
I'm simply re-posting because this one looks important, relatively easy, and this way you don't have to do any clicking.

*Crankcase Bleeders*

This modification is relatively easy. In a two-stroke engine, the fuel/oil/air mist is drawn through the crankcase. Some of the oil condenses on the relatively cool crankcase walls and runs down to the bottom. If you leave it in there, it will be blown out whenever it builds up too much, or when you open the throttle further (increasing air flow). This small reservoir of uncontrolled fuel will cause uneven operation and fouled plugs.

So the engineers put in drains to get that oil out of the crankcases. These bleed the oil through check valves so the crankcase doesn’t lose any vacuum. On each compression stroke it blows a little oil through a small reed valve, then the reed valve closes to avoid “diluting” the vacuum or sucking the oil back in.

This is what it looks like:



The small reed valves on the lower left side of the gasket mating surface are the bleeders. Here’s the side view:



The top two arrows point to the channels that drain oil from the bottom of each crankcase. These go though the upper and lower sides of the check valve assembly. The lower arrow points to the outlet channel, which runs to the base of the powerhead. There, the wasted oil is discharged into the spent cooling water. That’s right, it just spits the oil into the water. These motors were designed in a very different time. Clearly it would be good if we could clean this up!

Fortunately, it’s easy to do. First, we need a way to add a hose barb to the manifold. Unfortunately there isn’t enough metal to tap into.




JB Weld to the rescue! A Dremel or similar tool is by far the quickest way to take the paint off this area. You were looking for an excuse to buy one anyway, and it will help you with those fantasies of being a dentist.


Once the paint is off, wash with a degreaser – I use Spic-n-Span. Rinse and dry, obviously. A final cleaning with acetone is not a bad idea when using epoxy. Then add a little “dam” of masking tape. This holds the JB Weld in place while it cures.


We will need an 11/32” hole for a 1/8” pipe thread. But just in case, drill a pilot hole first. Do this from the inside, and center punch before drilling. You don’t want any unpleasant surprises, like your hole overlaps the gasket mating surface.


My hole didn’t leave quite as much metal as I would have liked, so I added more JB Weld. Now it looks like this.




While you are mixing the JB Weld, you may as well plug the bleeder drain. (Max would say to use hard-setting gasket sealant in case you ever want to reverse the process. But I don’t think it’s much harder to drill JB Weld. And I can’t think why I would want to go back to spitting oil into the lake.) Degrease the metal and put a small dab in the hole. Flatten it under a piece of masking tape and let it cure. When cured, very carefully file it flush with the rest of the surface. You may need to lap the entire surface with a piece of plate glass and Crocus cloth or #00 Emery. Just make sure that your modification doesn’t prevent the gasket from sealing, and even more important, that you don’t cut away too much of the gasket mating surface! (In case you were wondering, the other piece of tape is for Max's "ditching the pressure tank" mod, as seen in the book mentioned above.)
View attachment 6

When all looks well, we enlarge our hole to 11/32” and paint. I used Rustoleum spray primer and enamel. When it dries we can cut threads. Watch carefully so your threading doesn’t cut into the gasket mating surface. Pipe thread is tapered, so you have to start from the outside, and the hole gets wider as you cut deeper. Remember to keep firm pressure on the tap as you’re starting it, or your first couple threads will get stripped.

If your engine really doesn’t have space for 1/8” pipe threading, you could always center bore a 10-32 or even ¼” screw and use it as a hose barb. It is very tedious to end-bore a screw, since you have to stop and add oil often to prevent the tiny drill overheating. It might also be possible to JB Weld on a hose barb, but I think a hole tapped at least partly in metal will resist vibration better. This may be superstition. If you do make a threaded hole, use the yellow Teflon tape – the white stuff isn’t meant to resist petroleum.




After putting the engine back together I clamped a couple feet of hose to my excuse for a hose barb. This line leads to a catch jar made from an empty pill bottle. I used a green veterinary pill bottle so it would match the engine. Such vanity.


First I bored the lid to tightly fit two hose barbs. One is double-ended. Once these were fitted, I clamped them in a vice and added JB Weld to lock them in place. (I don’t own stock in JB Weld or anything, by the way. I just find it very convenient.)


Then I added hoses. This is how they should look. The inlet is the double barb. We add a short section of hose to make sure the waste fuel ends up in the bottom of the bottle. The other barb is the vent. It’s hose is zip-tied into an inverted “U” shape to keep water from easily splashing into the bottle.


We still need to mount the bottle somewhere. It would be slick to mount it to the leg of the motor, but I went with a simpler solution. It hangs by its hose. Winter is a good time to come up with a better bracket. I’m thinking it will screw to the back of the exhaust “telltale” housing. But if it tilts with the motor, be sure the vent faces aft so you don’t dump the oil when you tilt the motor up!


No matter how it is mounted, any oil collected in this jar correlates exactly with pollution you prevented. Over a one-hour run I burned less than a half-gallon of fuel, but collected about 20 mL out the bleeders. This may not seem like a lot, but remember this is only one hour. It amounts to maybe a half cup over 6 hours of running. How much would this amount to over an entire season? With a bigger motor? In any case, it makes me feel a lot better about using a two-stroke and it cost hardly anything to implement.

Some people will be thinking of piping this fuel back to the tank. I wouldn’t. seems to take on a little water in the crankcase, and this makes the oil precipitate far too readily. Dispose of it with your waste oil.


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## LonLB (Aug 27, 2011)

*I'll update this post as I find more info on storage of Ethanol blended fuels-and Especially more info on storing E85*

I mentioned fuel availability earlier. It is OK. But there is definitely *not* an E85 station on the way to every lake I want to fish.

So.....I will have to store some fuel. Something that is generally not a good idea with ethanol blended fuels.

So I'm searching for info on this. I don't need a TON of fuel. But keeping 50 gallons on hand, would be ideal.

Ignoring everything I'm sorting through-what I understand is that you don't want to store ethanol blended fuels in a half empty container. Not in the heat, or especially direct sunlight, and preferably not vented to the outdoors.

An assortment of 6 gallon tanks, with the new EPA approved spouts are in order. Numbered tanks would help to keep track of when each tank was filled-enabling the use of old stock first.

OK enough of that. Here is some info *from SHELL*, 
"All gasoline has finite storage life. If storing gasoline longer than 6 months, you may want to use a supplement fuel preservative additive.

If aged long enough, gasoline can form gum & varnish that can cause engine operating problems, & sometimes to the engine & fuel tank. All Shell gasoline - conventional & reformulated - meet ASTM requirements for stability (a measure of protection against oxidation that can degrade gasoline properties). How long gasoline can be stored, depends mostly on storage conditions. Increased temperature, exposure to air and contaminates, and the material the storage container is made of can shorten storage life. Generally, gasoline stored for longer than 6 months will likely benefit from adding a supplemental stabilizing additive. Usually available at your Shell service station. Stored gasoline only in an approved container, well away from sources of ignition."

For tanks that are mostly full & going to be left for a considerable length of time, add a fuel stabilizer. Premix a couple of gallons of gas with enough stabilizer for the total amount in the tank, then add this mixture into the tank. Different stabilizers give different "life" times, so therefore some brands of stabilizers "do" more.

*From Chevron:*
"Gasoline stored in a tightly closed container in a cool place will stay good for at least a year. It is better if the container or gas tank is almost (95%) full. If the container or gas tank will be in the direct sun or will be heated above 80 degrees F. much of the time, add an aftermarket fuel stabilizer to the gas when you first buy it. Gasoline-oil blends for two-stroke cycle engines stored under the proper conditions will keep as well as gasoline itself."

The oil additive therefore does not make any difference in storage life.


Here is some fuel storage info. Again this isn't E85 specific. In fact it pertains to *FIGHTING* ethanol.
https://www.sschapterpsa.com/ramblings/fuel%20tank%20storage.htm


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## LonLB (Aug 27, 2011)

Here is a link to a company that makes an Organic/Enzyme based Fuel treatment. Also works as a stabilizing agent.
https://www.solpower.com/

_here is what caught my eye_

Many boaters of 2 cycle motors report that this product eliminates the black carbony stains on the stern & motor parts at water level,

West Marine also sells a similar product. I suspect that solpower is the manufacturer, as they also sell the same product rebranded in Europe under the name-XBEE

West Marine's product is called Startron. Info from them....
This additive is sold by West Marine. A 16 oz. bottle normally sells for $21.99, however you may find it on sale for $16.49. Their catalog says -- New enzyme-based additive increases fuel economy and engine power while reducing emissions. Stabilizes gas for short and long term periods of inactivity (up to one year) while preventing the formation of varnish. Eliminates carbon buildup in fuel delivery system and exhaust components. Increases octane and removes water from the fuel, making it the perfect solution to prevent and eliminate ethanol (E-10) fuel problems. Fights organic growth without biocide! Reduces fuel consumption and engine wear while increasing power. Enzymes treat water in fuel. For use with any engine; not toxic to the environment.


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## Lil' Blue Rude (Aug 28, 2011)

If your going to run castor oil through your motor you better look forward to tearing the motor down alot for cleaning or rebuilding it do to a stuck ring. castor oil is a better lubricant but it builds varnish that will stick the ring if it isn't cleaned out from time to time. Alot of guys run this in pump gas motors and alot of guys are sticken pistons because they don't realize it sticks rings.


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## lckstckn2smknbrls (Aug 28, 2011)

You can get startron at walmart. Add some seafoam to control the carbon build up.


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## LonLB (Aug 28, 2011)

Lil' Blue Rude said:


> If your going to run castor oil through your motor you better look forward to tearing the motor down alot for cleaning or rebuilding it do to a stuck ring. castor oil is a better lubricant but it builds varnish that will stick the ring if it isn't cleaned out from time to time. Alot of guys run this in pump gas motors and alot of guys are sticken pistons because they don't realize it sticks rings.




I have heard that too. Most of the issues I have read though were castor oil products from "back in the day". A blended product like the TechniPlate should be OK, as it is formulated to address that exact issue.


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## ohiobass (Aug 29, 2011)

I run 1 oz of Seafoam in every 2 gallons of gas used, along with some of the new Stabil with ethanol treatment.
I used to just run Seafoam at a 1 oz per gallon of gas, but since adding the Stabil/ehtanol treatment, and backed off to 1 oz per 2 gallons of gas.
I've been using Seafoam in EVERY gallon of gas put in my outboards (own 3 boats) for over 15 yrs, with GREAT results!
Along with Amsoil 100% synthetic oil. 8)


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## Hanr3 (Sep 1, 2011)

Great idea, and you have my interest. 

Couple of things.
1) Make sure all your gaskets, rings, seals, hoses are designed for alcohol.
2) Wont the alcohol in the ethanol clean the varnish left by the castrol oil? 

I assume your going to adjust your timing for pre-ignition?


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## LonLB (Sep 9, 2011)

Hanr3 said:


> Great idea, and you have my interest.
> 
> Couple of things.
> 1) Make sure all your gaskets, rings, seals, hoses are designed for alcohol.
> ...




1) Yes that is a concern. Hoses are easy to source, and I think I'll be OK with all of the gaskets. Any original seals may need to be replaced with new seals, likely made of a rubber that will withstand the ethanol better than those made 30+years ago.

2) Yes it will. I'm not concerned about using pure Castor oil, but may still use the Amsoil Saber, as it allows up to 100:1 mixes, and is still an ester based synthetic.
The other option is to install a VRO system, to get the benefits of the variable oiling system. And they aren't as unreliable as people like to claim.

Ethanol will prevent pre-ignition. Because of that, you could mill the head(s) a good deal for a big bump in compression and still get away with the current timing. (where as otherwise you would have to retard timing, and run premium fuel). 
An engine setup for E85, will likely have more power than one that burns gasoline.


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## LonLB (Sep 9, 2011)

I've been reading about MSD ignitions.
I want to go that route eventually. From the multiple sparks, to hotter spark, adjustable timing, etc,etc.
You would be able to set your rev limit to anything you want, get multiple sparks vs 1 spark, hotter ignition, and be able to adjust timing to have a variable timing curve. One that retards for easy starting, advances quite a lot in mid range for more grunt, and then retards slightly at WOT for a built in safety margin.

Apparently there used to be a kit that had a digital CDI, three single tower coils, and three trigger pick ups.

After looking at this setup, I think that you could use them in place of the factory triggers, and keep the charge coils in place. Otherwise some guys add a pulley/alternator. Which I don't want to do because of expense (major expense because you will need a new flywheel, and alternator plus all the other small parts)
Then fab a new coil bracket, for the MSD coils, wire it up, and should be good to go.


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## Hanr3 (Sep 9, 2011)

Sounds like a plan and a ton of research.

Not sure about the MSD for outboards, however I know it gets used a ton in the 4x4 off-roading commmunity.


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## Lil' Blue Rude (Sep 9, 2011)

If your planing on milling hte heads to gain monster compresion you'll need to put a set of forged pistons in this motor. Stock cast pistons don't like much over 170psi before they crack. Forged pistons are alot stronger and can take the monster compression. Just some more food for thought.


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## LonLB (Oct 29, 2011)

Lil' Blue Rude said:


> If your planing on milling hte heads to gain monster compresion you'll need to put a set of forged pistons in this motor. Stock cast pistons don't like much over 170psi before they crack. Forged pistons are alot stronger and can take the monster compression. Just some more food for thought.




For now, NO.

Maybe after a few years use, I might. Unless it doesn't stay together that long.....Either way, this idea just took a couple of interesting turns.

1) I'll be a full time student soon. I'm not a "student". I have three boys, a wife, and bills. So I will be broke the next few years.

2) The local gas station now sells E85. Before it would have been a 25 mile drive. Now it's a 3 mile drive.



My ONLY concern at this point is cold weather starting....


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