# What's better Power T&T or NO T&T & a CMC unit?



## richg99 (Jun 8, 2017)

I am in discussions to add a small flats boat to my diminishing fleet.

One boat had Power Tilt and Trim on the motor.

The other boat had a motor without Power T&T, but added a CMC (or other brand) Tilt and trim unit. The dealer said that...

"in the location/area that the boat gets used, they hit a lot of rocks. It is felt by many that a Power T&T motor loses its "kick-up" option.

A non-Power T&T motor can be run with the free "kick up" system in place. The CMC unit allows for T&T; and adds setback, which allows for raising the engine, hence, even shallower operation."

My first reaction wasn't so positive towards the CMC solution...but..Upon reflection...I think the dealer had a very good point.

Any comments appreciated, though please leave out suggestions for a jet. It would only add to the confusion. I am aware that a jet may be another viable option and don't wish to discuss them in this thread.

thanks, richg99


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## DaleH (Jun 8, 2017)

I see the reasoning ... and can understand it.

Now I had the big CMC unit for my 90hp and I loved it and it worked flawlessly for the 8-seasons Inhad that boat.

But please check the searches, as someone here works for a dealer that installed a bunch of them and it sounds like they've cheapened some of the components on the PT-30 (35?) model, includkmg kne brace that keeps breaking off. 

They had good comments you should at least be aware of.


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## richg99 (Jun 9, 2017)

Yeah, Thanks Dale. I also saw that post and will recover it. That post is why I put "or other T&T unit" in the query.
regards, Rich


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## nccatfisher (Jun 9, 2017)

I have run those 35 T&T units and been on several more. Running one now. If you hit something hard enough to break the piece they are referring to I can promise you the same crowd that continuously complain that you should NEVER run a stainless prop on a small outboard would pull their hair out. They are plenty tough. But they have made corrections in that area. 

That being said if there is a weak point it is the two relays for the up/down. If you don't have them mounted in a fairly dry area they can cause issues. They don't have to be in a waterproof environment but they better darn sure be in a shielded area from water. I buy plastic boxes and mount them in them and have no problems whatsoever.


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## richg99 (Jun 9, 2017)

Thanks, NC.... that is VERY good advice. (mounting the relays in waterproof boxes). I would not have thought of it.

rich


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## Stumpalump (Jun 9, 2017)

I had both on almost identified boats. Given a choice the aftermarket CMC is better. You can set height without fooling with bolts that go thru the hull transom except when you install it. Due to the pivot point, as it lifts it also jacks the motor up. The set back lets it push the boat onto plane with less adjustment. The best feature of setback is going slow. The leverage away from the hull makes it steer better. I really like it a lot better than factory trim. Best of both worlds would be factory trim with a powered Jack-plate. Stacking units would give too much setback.
Given a choice and not having a kick up feature that's still what I would do. How often do you hit stuff and are you above idle speed when you do? When I drag then I trim up. You have been boating long enough not to blindly plow into shallow water. But then again your waters may be full of obstacles and your motor needs to kick up. If so you answered your question but yes the CMC is better than factory trim despite the kick up feature.


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## DaleH (Jun 9, 2017)

richg99 said:


> Thanks, NC.... that is VERY good advice. (mounting the relays in waterproof boxes). I would not have thought of it.


I boat in saltwaters where even the salt air can be corrosive to items, so I buy those small 6" square or 6x8" rectangular 'Tupperwear"-type boxes that have the full O-Ring seal and clamping latches. I put my fuse or circuit breakers or connection buss in them.

A proven protective spray is BoeShield T9 ... just spray static parts only, don't spray anything dynamic that has to move.


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## LDUBS (Jun 9, 2017)

DaleH said:


> richg99 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks, NC.... that is VERY good advice. (mounting the relays in waterproof boxes). I would not have thought of it.
> ...



I use BoeShield T9 to protect my tablesaw top. Kind of pricey, but a great product. This stuff was invented by or for Boeing to protect aircraft parts.


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## Stumpalump (Jun 9, 2017)

I mounted my relays in a small Plano box with the o-ring gasket. Those plastic boxes are biodegradable in the sun. Mine cracked up in a year and was literally powder and dust in two. Paint it or use it out of the sun.
Oh and I forgot that I found your flats boat on craigslist. This thing has been advertised befor with great pics and info. It looked good! It's a shallow water boat with super low hours. The pics on the last add showed as new. Google the hull and ask for more pics. Bet you could steal it for 10. I've never seen it but could face time you so you could see it live. You would have the coolest flats boat, ski boat, fishing boat and grand kid boat in TX. Made for shallow rockey rivers so the hull is thick. Not overly thick either. It's 22 so it will eat up some ruff water even with the flatish hull. https://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/boa/6147584658.html
Looks like a dealer has it. https://www.scmboats.com/boat.php?id=443


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## richg99 (Jun 9, 2017)

Lots of helpful suggestions here.

As far as hitting something..think Oyster Reefs. If you are lucky, they will only scrape up the bottom of your boat. They do not move. Yes, I've hit a zillion if them. They do for gradually re-position themselves, unless there is a hurricane. Then the appear in new places. Doesn't happen often, but tides and currents happen daily.

The boat in Phoenix won't make it in 4 or 5 inches of water, where the redfish hang out, but thanks anyhow. I'm lóoking at Max hp of 25.

Keep the suggestions coming. Rich


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## turbotodd (Jun 9, 2017)

The CMC PT35's lower clevis bracket is a little better on the newest versions, but still will break. It takes a hit, but it will still break. Keep a spare. It's not likely to be replaced while on the water, the screws that hold it on are in the front side of the plate, so you have to pull the CMC off to get to the screws, as best I remember. I haven't sold a PT35 in a long time, generally try to get folks to put a PT130 on instead, which is a LOT beefier. Never seen a PT130 fail, other than a worn out actuator. BTW, CMC won't warranty an actuator if you cut the wires, so if you're doing anything the wiring, be sure to leave the plug intact and cut the harness end, not the actuator end. Read further below....

The relays, the newest ones, are better than the old ones but they're still garbage. The old ones were so bad that in this area, duck hunters would get less than an hour of use out of the boat before a relay would die. Sad. Keep in mind the conditions, usually cold, rainy, worst possible weather for an angler, but the ducks and the hunters don't mind. An ATV winch contactor works 10x better and lasts nearly forever unless it's mounted below the water line on the outside of the boat, then it'll eventually quit due to corrosion internally, obviously. The link is the contactor that I usually install. Typically about $40 for the part. The wiring is easy. Yellow and blue terminals go to your CMC actuator. Red terminal is battery +, black is batt -. Then you have two small wires. They go to your up/down switch. If you get it wired backwards, up goes down and down goes up, just switch the wires on the yellow and blue studs, or reverse the polarity on your switch. It's really easy. Those CMC relays are garbage, and if/when they do fail, it's always the worst possible time. You just tilted the motor up to run shallow, and it won't tilt back down. Or you're stuck in the mud bottom and the motor won't tilt up. Or worse yet, you get to the lake with high hopes, and it won't tilt at all. Makes for less than good day. Do the contactor and that problem goes away, permanently as far as I know. I've never heard of a contactor failing unless it was left submerged.

https://www.kfiproducts.com/replacement-winch-contactor.html


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## richg99 (Jun 9, 2017)

Turbotod or anyone else with knowledge of
Bob's Machine Shop T&T and/or Panther T&T

From my recent readings, and paying attention to the reported failure rate of the CMC PT35 units....I am leaning towards the Bob's Machine Shop device.

The one hitch that I read about and haven't had a chance to call them on.....is that the unit (seemingly) will only accommodate clamp-on motors and doesn't align with the BIA specs for bolt-on engines.

Any help or input appreciated. thanks richg99


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## Stumpalump (Jun 10, 2017)

Anything Bob's make is as good as it gets. Probably the best. Will this work for you on a motor that has factory trim?
https://houston.craigslist.org/bpo/6108660413.html


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## skipper123 (Jun 10, 2017)

After going thru three of the CMCs in five years I decided buying my motors with factory PTT is a must. I replaced relays on all three. Keeping them completely dry is a must or they will short out in a few months. On a side note I have yet to break a factory PTT in 30 years of boating. Adjusting my Tohatsu outboard up or down is as easy as removing two of the four transom bolts and lifting the motor up one bolt hole and slide it back in.


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## richg99 (Jun 10, 2017)

I will now be putting off buying ANYTHING for a couple of months.

Doc said I need a new knee. Operation scheduled for 7/13 already. 

D#$&@,. There goes my Summer.
Rich


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## benjineer (Jun 12, 2017)

Excellent thread. I have the same questions. I have a 50hp, so the PT-35 is not an option. I see Panther has a 55hp version, but it's not much less in price than the PT-130


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## Stumpalump (Jun 12, 2017)

PT-130 used are $200-$400 all over. Use Search Tempest and find a seller that will ship. Corpus Chrysti craigslist has one for example. Search "CMC". I bought an older rattle can black one for $160 after a 40 minute drive and a haggle. I greased the pivot points and slapped it on. Ahhh trim with setback and higher height!


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## benjineer (Jun 12, 2017)

Stumpalump said:


> PT-130 used are $200-$400 all over. Use Search Tempest and find a seller that will ship. Corpus Chrysti craigslist has one for example. Search "CMC". I bought an older rattle can black one for $160 after a 40 minute drive and a haggle. I greased the pivot points and slapped it on. Ahhh trim with setback and higher height!


Sweet! How fast does that 48hp push your boat? Did the setback make a noticeable improvement?u


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## Stumpalump (Jun 13, 2017)

benjineer said:


> Stumpalump said:
> 
> 
> > PT-130 used are $200-$400 all over. Use Search Tempest and find a seller that will ship. Corpus Chrysti craigslist has one for example. Search "CMC". I bought an older rattle can black one for $160 after a 40 minute drive and a haggle. I greased the pivot points and slapped it on. Ahhh trim with setback and higher height!
> ...



I can milk 34 out it. It ran 28 when I bought it. It let me go from a 15 to 17 pitch prop. This is on a 550 lbs 18' hull. It's rated for an 80. I mention that because it adds weight. The unit weighs 30-40 lbs and your moving the whole motor back. If your on a small boat and are already heavy in the stern then don't do it. The setback lets you run the motor higher and in clean water. It also pushes the boat without having to push down to lift the boat. It's a straighter prop wash. The leverage on the rear makes it turn on a dime at slow speeds. I can't think of a single thing about it that I don't like better but I don't think my old 16' with about the same motor would have liked the extra weight. Most boats on here are smaller so I point that out. On a smaller boat a home brew bracket out of 1/4" aluminum angel that raised the motor an inch and back 2 or 3" might be a worthwhile little project.


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## Stumpalump (Jun 13, 2017)

duplicate post


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## benjineer (Jun 13, 2017)

Thanks! That's pretty good. I was hoping for 40+ on my 16-footer. I'm going to try it without the CMC first. I'm having to build up my 15" transom to 20", but I made sure it is wide enough to fit the CMC or Panther if I decide to add one. I'll report back with before/after numbers if I do. My fuel tank is in front, and I can move a battery(s) up there if needed. I don't think stern weight will be an issue for me. Console and driving/riding seats may move forward also.


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## onthewater102 (Jun 13, 2017)

I'm using an aftermarket T&T with my 16' & 60HP for exactly the same reason - to preserve the breakaway option of the motor that didn't come with factory tilt & trim for running a reservoir that has a lot of floating semi-submerged debris. I haven't settled on either Bobs, CMC or the Panther unit, but those seem to be the top contenders out there.


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## ericman (Jun 13, 2017)

I have an 89 Mercury 35 hp tiller, manual start, hydraulic assist. The hydraulic assist worked okay. . .if it was warm enough. Come late duck season, it was basically frozen and I couldn't raise the motor enough to lock it in the up position to maneuver it out of the weeds and prevent it from hanging up in the ice. I also had built my transom up to help prevent waves from coming over, probably 2-3 inches too high. The motor worked okay IF it was all the way down.

NOW I have a CMC after market tilt, which allowed me to set it back the 5 inches from the transom and an inch lower than my raised transom. Now the long tiller handle is easier to deal with being a little further back and now I can run the motor raised up a bit. It planes out quicker (boat is rated for 75 and now it planes out with 2 guys, coolers, guns and 120 decoys). PLUS, with the hydraulic assist disabled, it has the "kick-back".

So, I agree, for those of us running in rougher conditions. This is the way to go. One complaint though. The aftermarket lifts operate really sluggishly when it gets cold. I'm told I may need to put synthetic hydraulic fluid in the lift to make it run faster.


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## benjineer (Jun 19, 2017)

Stumpalump said:


> PT-130 used are $200-$400 all over. Use Search Tempest and find a seller that will ship. Corpus Chrysti craigslist has one for example. Search "CMC". I bought an older rattle can black one for $160 after a 40 minute drive and a haggle. I greased the pivot points and slapped it on. Ahhh trim with setback and higher height!



Well, I got one on the way. I toyed with that garbage tilt-assist cylinder until I got the plunger the cable is supposed to pull loosened up. Now it will hold it in place for reverse and still absorb some shock, so I'm not worried about the motor flipping up into the boat with me if I hit something. I can set it down at the bottom and leave it alone. I'm excited, but I'm still at least a couple of weeks from a trial.


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## Stumpalump (Jun 19, 2017)

benjineer said:


> Stumpalump said:
> 
> 
> > PT-130 used are $200-$400 all over. Use Search Tempest and find a seller that will ship. Corpus Chrysti craigslist has one for example. Search "CMC". I bought an older rattle can black one for $160 after a 40 minute drive and a haggle. I greased the pivot points and slapped it on. Ahhh trim with setback and higher height!
> ...



You will like it! How do you plan on getting 40 mph out of it? All I can find are 15p or 17P props. You may need a 21p and I could use a 19. Let me know if you find any. They say you can spin these motors to 6500 plus and racers go to 8000 but that's with 25:1 oil and bigger balls than I have.


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## muddywaders (Jun 19, 2017)

Curious about the Mercury hydraulic tilt assist does it move when you hit something or is it like power trim?


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## benjineer (Jun 19, 2017)

Stumpalump said:


> You will like it! How do you plan on getting 40 mph out of it? All I can find are 15p or 17P props. You may need a 21p and I could use a 19. Let me know if you find any. They say you can spin these motors to 6500 plus and racers go to 8000 but that's with 25:1 oil and bigger balls than I have.



I don't really have a point of reference right now. I just have to go try it. Will start by experimenting with engine height some I guess. The prop on it is a SS 17 pitch. I'm sure I'll need more. I didn't think about them not being available. I could always have it repitched at a prop shop. I think I have a light boat, so I'm expecting it to over-rev. I'm not running it at 6500. No way. Hey, I found some part nos for a 19P. I found a couple of them on ebay as well.




Well, Stump, I guess I shouldn't have gone looking. I found a good deal on that 011029 Michigan and bought it. I will have one of the two I have for sale when I finish my trials. I found several on ebay of different models shown in the chart above. I also found one not on the chart - 011022, but it looks to maybe be a discontinued version. Go search for some of these part numbers, you'll find something.


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## benjineer (Jun 21, 2017)

Hey, a 21P exists as well. I don't see any for sale, but I'll keep this in mind if neither of the ones I have are enough.


We shall see. Maybe all I need to make it go fast is a bigger budget.


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## Stumpalump (Jun 21, 2017)

Good work finding those! The speed is right on what my last two boats ran with a 17P. 37 mph on the 16' and 34 with the 18'. Make sure your tach is set right. Both of my last boats had the switch set wrong. I guess the installers memorize the OMC setting for the 3 cly and 4 cly and set the tach for them instead of the 2cly.


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## surfman (Jun 21, 2017)

For shallow water running you want a jack plate, not a T&T, a T&T changes the attitude of the motor and the more you trim it up the more it forces the transom down and bow up. A jack plate raises the motor straight up, it works really well when you are really shallow and are moving slow too. You need to be careful though, of raising it up too high above the water pick up, some people add a water pressure gage and watch that, when the pressure falls of lower it back down.


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## richg99 (Jun 21, 2017)

re the Jackplate... Of course, you are correct. I've owned a few of them along the way.

But, a JP still leaves me back at square one. If I buy a motor with power T&T, I have no kickup provision. Added to a JP, it still doesn't have a kick-up provision, though one would hope that by jacking the motor higher, it wouldn't hit too many obstacles.

If I buy a motor WITHOUT T&T...I gain the kickup. If I put it on a JP..I have the ability to raise the engine, but I lose T&T.

It's a dilemma that I haven't figured out yet. 

My past experiences say to do what you suggest. Just buy a JP, and buy a motor with power T&T..and pray.

richg99

p.s. This discussion may well be moot if I buy a used boat. It will have what it has, and then I can figure out what, if anything, I want to change.


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## onthewater102 (Jun 21, 2017)

With braying being a central part of the plan it doesn't sound like a very good plan.


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## benjineer (Jun 21, 2017)

Stumpalump said:


> Good work finding those! The speed is right on what my last two boats ran with a 17P. 37 mph on the 16' and 34 with the 18'. Make sure your tach is set right. Both of my last boats had the switch set wrong. I guess the installers memorize the OMC setting for the 3 cly and 4 cly and set the tach for them instead of the 2cly.



Good point. I'll be robbing the tach off a boat that was running a V4. If the 19P is not enough I may go searching for a 21, but not until I finish my other mods, since I may be increasing the weight. I want top end, but I won't sacrifice power with whatever my heaviest load is. I hate a boat that bogs and planes slowly.


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## surfman (Jun 29, 2017)

So if you have a jack plate, why do you need power trim and tilt? Just jack it up if it is too low trailering or something like that, if you need to tilt it up then I understand. For years I had and old Evinrude V4 140 hp and it did not have trim and tilt. I almost never tilted the motor up but when I did it wasn't all that hard to do but you did have to lean on it.


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## benjineer (Jun 29, 2017)

Power trim allows you to make adjustments while you are running for different loads or sea conditions. The boat will plane quicker with the trim down but once on plane it runs faster and more efficiently with it trimmed up. That sweet spot could be a different position today than yesterday depending on weight in the boat and where the weight is and the speed you are trying to run. Small light boat on small lakes or rivers with slick water, and a permanent trim may be ok. Slick water you want bow up for speed until it just starts to porpoise then back off. Rough water you want bow down and run slow to use the V if you have one to cut the waves.


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## richg99 (Jun 29, 2017)

Thanks guys. Problem may be solved this afternoon.

If suçcessful, I'll own a motor with T.&T. and it's boat with a manual JP. No changes anticipated at this time.

richg99


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## Stumpalump (Jun 29, 2017)

richg99 said:


> Thanks guys. Problem may be solved this afternoon.
> 
> If suçcessful, I'll own a motor with T.&T. and it's boat with a manual JP. No changes anticipated at this time.
> 
> richg99



I found selling stuff that if I can get them to show up then they buy. Soooo....I'd like to be the first to congratulate you on the new addition to the family!


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## turbotodd (Jun 29, 2017)

Bob's for sure. I like both, but Bob's has always been a premium product. The panther isn't too bad but the actuator isn't hydraulic, it's electric. Not a big deal really, simpler for sure, but makes me wonder how well it's sealed up? Most in this area use CMC, few Panther's and a very few Bob's, probably because of price point and "the name". 

PT&T vs add-on. A CMC (or any other add-on) with factory PT&T gives you some more adjustability that you wouldn't normally have, which can be nice. For instance, if you tuck the "CMC" in all the way, and trim the motor out, it's just normal PT&T. But if you trim the motor's PT&T in all the way, and then the CMC "out", the motor actually gets a lift, sorta like a jack plate, all done by the difference in geometries of the two PT&T's. Kinda slick. But redundant, and for most it's not a cost-conscious option. A few duck hunters, aka boat racers, in this area run that setup, and it must work. There's also the option of the tilt and jack all in one unit, if your pockets are deep enough. I sure would like one but can't justify the cost.

Another option. Use a BA130 CMC unit (break-a-way) with a factory PT&T motor. Seen a lot of those out here too, quite popular in the flooded timber actually. Just make sure to put a chain or cable on the break-a-way so that the motor doesn't join you in the boat should you hit something. They come with a spring loaded deal that's basically a joke if you hit anything hard enough.


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## richg99 (Jun 30, 2017)

Problem resolved....( I hope).

I bought a 2006 1756 Lowe Semi V this afternoon. 2009 50 hp 2 cycle Mercury (probably made by Tahatsu) with T&T. The former owner was an aircraft mechanic and he "built" this thing from the bare hull. You can see the detail and attention that he paid to the boat. 

We'll see how shallow it goes. My mechanic of 25 years believes that this setup will do what I want. The owner already has a manual JP on the boat. I'll add a Hydraulic JP if needed. I bought the boat at a good enough price that I have plenty of room to "improve" an already well-done craft.

richg99


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## surfman (Jun 30, 2017)

benjineer said:


> Power trim allows you to make adjustments while you are running for different loads or sea conditions. The boat will plane quicker with the trim down but once on plane it runs faster and more efficiently with it trimmed up. That sweet spot could be a different position today than yesterday depending on weight in the boat and where the weight is and the speed you are trying to run. Small light boat on small lakes or rivers with slick water, and a permanent trim may be ok. Slick water you want bow up for speed until it just starts to porpoise then back off. Rough water you want bow down and run slow to use the V if you have one to cut the waves.



Yea, I've owned many boats of all sizes and PT&T is a must on a larger boat and so are trim tabs for that matter, but on a small boat like a jon, it is not necessary, set it at the best for over all performance and if you need to trim it a little to get the bow down, slide the cooler forward a foot or step to the left a little.


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## benjineer (Jun 30, 2017)

Agreed. I got one now that could really benefit from tabs.


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