# Foam...water-logged foam...and no foam...Let's talk



## richg99

Foam...water-logged foam...and no foam

There have been numerous posts recently on using foam; using too little/too much foam; taking foam out and not replacing it, etc. I just thought it would be worthwhile to have a round-table discussion on all of that. 

As has been clearly stated here before...most recently by JasonLester..foam doesn't float a boat...only displacement i.e. area of hull vs weight of boat and gear............ floats a boat.
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I will simply start it off with my opinion...remembering that it only my opinion and I don't have any formal training in the topic at all.
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*No foam*..Water, sooner or later, gets in. Water weighs 8 lbs or so a gallon. Water sinks boat or makes the boat so unstable that it turns over and dumps boater and gear over-board.

*Foam NOT water-logged*. Water gets in. Water fills open areas but cannot fill the area(s) that the good foam is in, so the boat continues to float as too little water is allowed to accumulate in the open areas to sink the boat.

*Foam..Water-logged foam*. Obviously not as good as "good foam"....but...still does SOME good as the water cannot fill every possible crevice in the foam...so...the water that is allowed in is still less than the amount that would come in if there was no foam there at all. 
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IMHO....No boat starts out with water-logged foam. Most water-logged foam situations occur due to poor installation of deck fastened objects and bulk-heads. No caulking on screws; no caulking on bulkheads; boat is left out in the rain; drain is plugged...all the water that sits on the deck, sooner or later, drips down into the foam...and....Viola! we have water-logged foam. 

Not the foam's fault. Poor installation and poorer maintenance is the issue.
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You guys take it from here.....
Rich


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## Bigkat650

The problem is, the most cost-effective foam is the 'pink'; 'blue'; or 'green' foam boards used for insulation that are about $25 a sheet used for home insulation. That insulation is not a closed-cell foam, meaning it will absorb water.

Simply put, purchase closed-cell foam, like styrofoam or pool noodles, and it will not become water-logged. My local Lowes sells 4x8x2" sheets of a white closed cell foam board for about $26 a sheet--so for me, its a no-brainer, i'm going with that. If I didn't have that option, I would go to a dollar store and buy 50ish pool noodles...

I would not use foam that is not closed-cell... it can and will absorb water--once it does, its effectively doing more harm then good.


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## RiverBottomOutdoors

I think some people are a little overzealous about foam. Maybe they see jon boats sinking every week where they fish...me, I've never seen anyone sink one. But "better safe than sorry" is a good rule to follow. I didn't put foam under my flooring because sometimes I get lots of blood in my boat from bowfishing, I want to be able to flush the bildge. I also did not replace the foam that I removed from my middle seat and instead used it for storage space. The risk of sinking a boat in the waters I fish are nil.

Water logged foam is not better than no foam, in my opinion. I would say water logged foam is more a danger than no foam. False sense of security, decreased performance and handling.


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## richg99

Good point about cost....cost can always be a factor. Probably not too many multi-millionaires are here re-doing their tin boats. 

I have heard, but have NOT tried proving it...that a coat or two of good outside latex paint applied to any foam can prevent, or at least, slow down, water intrusion. Latex paint is used, rather than oil-based, since many oil-based products will simply melt the foam!

That would be a good experiment, especially for some of our still land-locked Frozen North members to try. Put a square of non-protected open-cell foam...AND..an equal square of painted open-cell foam under a brick in a bucket of water. Weigh both of them after a month or two. I'd like to see the outcome of that experiment.

As far as "more harm than good"...still just my humble opinion..that water-logged foam is still better than no foam...assuming water gets in and floods the boat. Of course, a case can be made that the water in the water-logged foam weighs a lot ( it does) and adds to the over loading.

Back when I was involved with the Carolina Skiff group..a number of us ( me included) had to drill holes in our transoms; tip the boat up on its stern...and let water drip out of the intruded foam for a couple of weeks. As I have said before, most of those issues were not caused by the foam itself, nor by the manufacturer...but rather by poor installation and maintenance after construction and delivery.

Rich
R


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## FuzzyGrub

Foam or No Foam? Foam. I don't want to loose the boat, regardless of the depth. If your boat can plane, it is fast enough to hit an object that can tear a hole in it. 

Closed or Open Cell Foam? Closed Cell Foam. Open cell is called a sponge.

Replace Removed Foam? Yes, add more if you can and you added decks or additional non-boyant weight.

Water-Logged Foam? Remove it. Closed cell should not absorb water. Deteriation and long water exposure can lead to it. Try to provide drainage under the foam. I don't like the pour in type, because it becomes a dam. Outside of handling problems, watre-logged foam has lost its boyancy, ie the air cells that provided the boyancy are filled with water.


I have blue styrofoam. I believe it is closed call foam that is used on exterior of concrete. What classification or rating should it have to verify that it is? I have submerged it in a glass of water for weeks, with no weight increase.


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## sixgun86

richg99 said:


> Back when I was involved with the Carolina Skiff group..a number of us ( me included) had to drill holes in our transoms; tip the boat up on its stern...and let water drip out of the intruded foam for a couple of weeks. As I have said before, most of those issues were not caused by the foam itself, nor by the manufacturer...but rather by poor installation and maintenance after construction and delivery.



x2. I had to drill holes in my J16 too. Running stringers port to starboard without having any way to let the water drain is genius! And they are still building the boats this way. " They are completely enclosed and water cannot get inside " & " I've only heard of one or two boats that became water logged in my 10yrs of selling". 

Okay, They are kit boats right? So when bench seats, Pedestals, Consoles, etc are installed. Aka, one screw hole in floor the entire section is compromised with no way to drain out the water unless you want to tip the boat sideways and drill small holes in the floor for each section. So strip hull bare, reinstall ea piece using truck load of 5200, and then re glass holes. Or ride the water logged dog.

My boat must have gained 100lbs since Mfg'r. ARGH!


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## Bigkat650

The only purpose to foam is to provide flotation in a worse-case scenario. If it's relative gravity (weight vs. weight of water) increases to the point where it will no longer float the boat because it is water-logged, then it is no longer doing its one and only job.

If foam is no longer doing its job, it is worse then not having anything for several reasons. First, it increases weight, and drag--making the boat sit lower in the water. This can cause several problems: from as minimal as poorer fuel economy, to actually making your boat more susceptible to capsizing/sinking. Secondly, it can give you a false sense of security. If you believe your boat will not sink, you may not act as fast when it starts sinking. Third, trapped moisture will promote things like fungus growth; mold; and wood rotting--all things which are bad for your boat, and for you.


Just get closed cell foam, its really not that much more expensive, and not that much harder to find.


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## bigwave

All you Navy guys can attest to this: All boats displace water. Added foam is mainly for safety reasons, thus a coast guard rating for each vessel. Each boat hull can only displace so much water before it sinks, so foam is added for safety, some boats have more than others. The most important thing in my opinion is proper de-watering devices. Foam being the first followed by bilge pumps and lastly a good ole bucket. I put alot of thought into my boat and for now have decided to not put the foam under my deck. I fish waters that are mostly less than 6 feet. Even though I might travel across waters that are up to 50 feet, I still have my life-jacket in a worse scenario. I might add foam in the future but for my purposes it does not warrant the cost for the two part stuff. There is no foam on an aircraft carrier....it all comes down to water tight integrity and de-watering devices. Just my two cents though. 

Proud to be a Navy Veteran.
Kevin


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## MrSimon

Does anyone on here have a personal story of foam actually keeping their boat from sinking? Have you ever even HEARD of an aluminum boat that was saved from sinking by its foam?

I've been in aluminum boats all my life. Big ones, little ones, good ones, crappy ones, leaky ones, dry ones .... I've never ever seen or even come close to a situation where foam was needed. I HAVE been in boats with about 4 inches of water on the floor though .... they were still floating just fine.

I've also often wondered, with a 140 pound outboard, 150 pounds of batteries, 50 pounds of gasoline, and 100 pounds of gear .... would some foam under the bench seats really keep that boat floating? I don't know, maybe it would .... but it doesn't really give me that much confidence.

Now, with all that said, I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to remove it from my boats (unless its water logged). But when re-doing tins, I don't add any additional foam and I doubt I ever will.

But, I also use canoes a lot and I will NEVER be in one that doesn't have foam blocks at both ends .... they have saved my butt on three different occasions.


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## JamesM56alum

i'v never really seen an alum boat sinking period, they usually just bob like a cork under the water.

Fiberglass on the other hand i'v seen them sink more than once.. wham bam thank you mam!


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## FuzzyGrub

MrSimon said:


> Does anyone on here have a personal story of foam actually keeping their boat from sinking? Have you ever even HEARD of an aluminum boat that was saved from sinking by its foam?
> 
> I've been in aluminum boats all my life. Big ones, little ones, good ones, crappy ones, leaky ones, dry ones .... I've never ever seen or even come close to a situation where foam was needed. I HAVE been in boats with about 4 inches of water on the floor though .... they were still floating just fine.
> 
> I've also often wondered, with a 140 pound outboard, 150 pounds of batteries, 50 pounds of gasoline, and 100 pounds of gear .... would some foam under the bench seats really keep that boat floating? I don't know, maybe it would .... but it doesn't really give me that much confidence.
> 
> Now, with all that said, I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to remove it from my boats (unless its water logged). But when re-doing tins, I don't add any additional foam and I doubt I ever will.
> 
> But, I also use canoes a lot and I will NEVER be in one that doesn't have foam blocks at both ends .... they have saved my butt on three different occasions.




I have never needed my air bag or numerous other safety features.  I am not sure what year it was required to have mfg have foam in small boats, but think they would have baulked if there wasn't any documented cases. Myself, won't tempt Murphy that much!


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## dyeguy1212

MrSimon said:


> I've also often wondered, with a 140 pound outboard, 150 pounds of batteries, 50 pounds of gasoline, and 100 pounds of gear .... would some foam under the bench seats really keep that boat floating? I don't know, maybe it would .... but it doesn't really give me that much confidence.



As long as that weight is within the max load value on the Coast Guard's plate, yes, it would keep it afloat.


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## PSG-1

Bigkat650 said:


> The problem is, the most cost-effective foam is the 'pink'; 'blue'; or 'green' foam boards used for insulation that are about $25 a sheet used for home insulation. That insulation is not a closed-cell foam, meaning it will absorb water.




Uh, oh. That's what I have in my jetboat, the 1 1/2" thick pink extruded styrofoam panels. I thought it was waterproof, that was why I used it. #-o 

Well, I reckon one of these days, I may have to pull that inner hull out, and replace that foam.


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## Bigkat650

dyeguy1212 said:


> MrSimon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've also often wondered, with a 140 pound outboard, 150 pounds of batteries, 50 pounds of gasoline, and 100 pounds of gear .... would some foam under the bench seats really keep that boat floating? I don't know, maybe it would .... but it doesn't really give me that much confidence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As long as that weight is within the max load value on the Coast Guard's plate, yes, it would keep it afloat.
Click to expand...



It's all relative... Search 'Specific gravity' either on this board or google, or click here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_gravity

I have flipped my canoe dozens of times, and the only reason in floated was because of the foam...

If you want to figure out what raw materials comprise your boat, you can calculate how much negative buoyancy you need to float--i.e. how much of the raw material weight has to accounted for in order to keep the boat neutrally buoyant, so it does not sink. It takes some math in order to determine the answer, and I calculated roughly what I needed--then added about 40% more to make sure I was set. Overkill is always the answer.


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## fool4fish1226

I think foam is better then no foam and yes it's only there incase of taking on water fast were your pumps won't keep up or stop working. JMO but the more safety items you have while on the water the better. I normally have a guest or two with me and their safety is my first concern.


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## Ictalurus

Bigkat650 said:


> The problem is, the most cost-effective foam is the 'pink'; 'blue'; or 'green' foam boards used for insulation that are about $25 a sheet used for home insulation. That insulation is not a closed-cell foam, meaning it will absorb water.



Seems like that depends on who you ask:

https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12567&hilit=blue+board+foam+closed+cell

I used the blue board in my boat, but would like a definitive answer if it is closed or open cell.


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## dyeguy1212

So moral of the story.. use the stuff that is made for the job.

I understand this site is partially devoted to jerry-rigging, but why not do it right the first time, and save yourself time and money down the road?

Even if you plan on selling it, doing it the right way can help make the sale. I can't count how many tinboats I've called on from CL and asked what kind of wood they used for the decks or new bunks. When they say pressure treated from HD or Lowes, I say thanks for your time.

You never know when you'll run into a buyer that will walk when you say there's X kind of foam under the decks.

Use the two part stuff made for boats, and avoid the headache.


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## Jdholmes

MrSimon said:


> Does anyone on here have a personal story of foam actually keeping their boat from sinking? Have you ever even HEARD of an aluminum boat that was saved from sinking by its foam?
> 
> I've been in aluminum boats all my life. Big ones, little ones, good ones, crappy ones, leaky ones, dry ones .... I've never ever seen or even come close to a situation where foam was needed. I HAVE been in boats with about 4 inches of water on the floor though .... they were still floating just fine.
> 
> I've also often wondered, with a 140 pound outboard, 150 pounds of batteries, 50 pounds of gasoline, and 100 pounds of gear .... would some foam under the bench seats really keep that boat floating? I don't know, maybe it would .... but it doesn't really give me that much confidence.



Yes, actually there was a story just recently with pictures of some folks on one of the great lakes that got swamped.

Four inches of water is not enough to sink a boat...unless it was way over the max capacity maybe...

Their isn't an argument of wether the foam will keep a boat from sinking if it's swamped...and yes some foam under the bench seats will really keep it floating, that's what it is designed to do.

It shouldn't give you all that much confidence...it is a help in an emergency. I don't have that much confidence in an air bag saving my life that I would drive like a fool and I don't have enough faith in foam that I would drive my boat like a fool, or skip on a bilge pump. I don't have enough faith in a bilge pump that I would skip on a manual pump...

That said I don't have any foam in my boat...I am willing to risk it for now but will put it in when I get the chance.


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## Jdholmes

It's not that hard to find out, just research the company they are getting it from. This is going to vary from state to stare. When I was in New Brunswick, Canada our HD carried pink stuff that was closed cell. The vendors actually did presentations at shows I had been at where they proved it was water and flame resistant.


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## gillhunter

MrSimon said:


> Does anyone on here have a personal story of foam actually keeping their boat from sinking? Have you ever even HEARD of an aluminum boat that was saved from sinking by its foam?
> 
> I've been in aluminum boats all my life. Big ones, little ones, good ones, crappy ones, leaky ones, dry ones .... I've never ever seen or even come close to a situation where foam was needed. I HAVE been in boats with about 4 inches of water on the floor though .... they were still floating just fine.
> 
> I've also often wondered, with a 140 pound outboard, 150 pounds of batteries, 50 pounds of gasoline, and 100 pounds of gear .... would some foam under the bench seats really keep that boat floating? I don't know, maybe it would .... but it doesn't really give me that much confidence.
> 
> Now, with all that said, I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to remove it from my boats (unless its water logged). But when re-doing tins, I don't add any additional foam and I doubt I ever will.
> 
> But, I also use canoes a lot and I will NEVER be in one that doesn't have foam blocks at both ends .... they have saved my butt on three different occasions.



Yes. #-o While on vacation (fishing of course) my wife and I came in from fishing in the morning and tied our Polar Kraft 168 SC up to the pier. My wife was the last one out of the boat and I asked her to turn off the livewell pump (500GPH), something that I normally did. The pump was controlled by a 3 way rocker switch. Manual, Off, Auto. She went past Off and switched it to manual. We then let for town to get more supplies and were gone 2 1/2 hours. When we got back I noticed that something really looked strange about the boat, ran out to the pier and there was water almost up to the casting decks. The batteries were submerged, but the powerhead on our 90hp Yamaha was still above water, which was 6' deep. It took me a minute to figure out what was going on.It took a 
couple of hours for for the 500 GPH bilge pump to empty the boat. (Yes it did run with the battery submerged). After the boat was pumped out everything worked and we were still married :LOL2: and good to go. As far as I'm concerned foam saved what could have been a ruined vacation and some expensive repairs. Our current boat has all the factory foam.


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## PSG-1

Ictalurus said:


> Bigkat650 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is, the most cost-effective foam is the 'pink'; 'blue'; or 'green' foam boards used for insulation that are about $25 a sheet used for home insulation. That insulation is not a closed-cell foam, meaning it will absorb water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like that depends on who you ask:
> 
> https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12567&hilit=blue+board+foam+closed+cell
> 
> I used the blue board in my boat, but would like a definitive answer if it is closed or open cell.
Click to expand...




Same here, except, I used the pink foam board. I'm hoping the answer is that it's OK, and I don't have to end up replacing it!


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## FuzzyGrub

Some searching on the DOW Blue board Styrofoam:

Extruded Styrofoam
This is Styrofoam Square Edge (extruded) often called “blueboard” due to its light blue color. Dow calls it STYROFOAM™ Brand Square Edge Insulation Extruded Polystyrene. It is:

one piece with air gaps sealed inside (extruded) 
brittle but less fragile 
about 20% better as an insulator (modest as an insulator goes) 
is completely impervious to moisture (hydrophobic)


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## Bigkat650

FuzzyGrub said:


> Some searching on the DOW Blue board Styrofoam:
> 
> Extruded Styrofoam
> This is Styrofoam Square Edge (extruded) often called “blueboard” due to its light blue color. Dow calls it STYROFOAM™ Brand Square Edge Insulation Extruded Polystyrene. It is:
> 
> one piece with air gaps sealed inside (extruded)
> brittle but less fragile
> about 20% better as an insulator (modest as an insulator goes)
> is completely impervious to moisture (hydrophobic)



Hmm I'll be honest, I used peoples word on here as to whether it was closed-cell or not--I honestly did not research it further like I usually do. Reason being was my local Lowes had something that I knew was closed cell, and it was actually a better price. That plus I have not actually purchased any yet. It would be good to determine exactly what these foam boards are and whether they are indeed 100% impervious to water.


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## Jdholmes

Nothing is 100% impervious to water.


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## FuzzyGrub

The original floatation foam in my Starcraft Mariner v and Smokercraft Fishmaster bench seats was/is plain white styrofoam. ie the non-extruded stuff. My fiberglass bowrider has the poured in type. The blue stuff has to be better than that.


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## xbacksideslider

I agree, no foam is totally water resistant. Still, styrofoam is both lighter and more resistant than most - best compromise.

I found 4x8 sheets of styrofoam that are faced on both sides with a moisture barrier of thin plastic. Only the edges are without a moisture barrier. 

I bought it in 1/2" 3/4" and 1" dimension and used it to build up and flatten V hull's floors; no wood stringers or joists or rivets. Faced the styrofoam with that thin 1/8" plywood that is used for underlayment.

Raised the floor maybe two inches at the center line. Spray can contact cement glued the layers together and the 1/8" plywood to the layered styrofoam underneath. The foam can be cut neatly with a hacksaw blade.

The floor panels are one piece and easily removed for cleaning/drying underneath.


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## PSG-1

I researched the pink board, and it says that it is closed-cell foam, as well. I feel better knowing that. 

OK, so, here's the next question. What about cases where foam has been removed, but a fuel tank has been put there? What kind of buoyancy would something like that provide in a swamping?

I have 2 11 gallon fuel tanks in the stern of my jetboat. I did not foam them back in place, because there was a concern with foam holding water, and causing corrosion to the aluminum tanks, as that is what happened previously, when I had these tanks foamed in place.


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## Ictalurus

FuzzyGrub said:


> Some searching on the DOW Blue board Styrofoam:
> 
> Extruded Styrofoam
> This is Styrofoam Square Edge (extruded) often called “blueboard” due to its light blue color. Dow calls it STYROFOAM™ Brand Square Edge Insulation Extruded Polystyrene. It is:
> 
> one piece with air gaps sealed inside (extruded)
> brittle but less fragile
> about 20% better as an insulator (modest as an insulator goes)
> is completely impervious to moisture (hydrophobic)




Fuzzy, 

Thanks for the input and clarification. I was pretty sure it was the right choice when I put under the decks. If I remember right, one member on here weighed a piece and submerged it for a week or so and weighed again, no change. Doubt my foam will stay that wet for that long.


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## Jdholmes

Ictalurus said:


> FuzzyGrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some searching on the DOW Blue board Styrofoam:
> 
> Extruded Styrofoam
> This is Styrofoam Square Edge (extruded) often called “blueboard” due to its light blue color. Dow calls it STYROFOAM™ Brand Square Edge Insulation Extruded Polystyrene. It is:
> 
> one piece with air gaps sealed inside (extruded)
> brittle but less fragile
> about 20% better as an insulator (modest as an insulator goes)
> is completely impervious to moisture (hydrophobic)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fuzzy,
> 
> Thanks for the input and clarification. I was pretty sure it was the right choice when I put under the decks. If I remember right, one member on here weighed a piece and submerged it for a week or so and weighed again, no change. Doubt my foam will stay that wet for that long.
Click to expand...


Very true...in all likelihood if you have the boat in 30 years it would be good to change it out...but for the foreseeable future it will do great.


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## WhiteMoose

If anyone is interested, and it may have been discussed before, but Steelflex can be used to seal foam insulation. I tried it and it is messy, but seemed to make a very nice hard coating on an Omaha Steaks styrofoam cooler. 

To the question of "Is foam necessary?", I guess I view it as more of a way to save you from losing all your gear than for personal safely. I don't really think I will ever have my 14' jon out more than a 20 second swim to shore, and even if I do get swamped to the point where I am clinging to my disabled boat, I'm not going to sit out there and wait to be rescued by someone.

I have my rear bench seat still full of the factory foam, and 4 extra lifejackets locked in my front storage compartment (in addition to the one I'm usually wearing). I assume this will be enough to keep the nose of my boat bobbing above the water if its ever swamped, but I have no way of knowing for sure. :|


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## FuzzyGrub

PSG-1 said:


> OK, so, here's the next question. What about cases where foam has been removed, but a fuel tank has been put there? What kind of buoyancy would something like that provide in a swamping?
> 
> I have 2 11 gallon fuel tanks in the stern of my jetboat. I did not foam them back in place, because there was a concern with foam holding water, and causing corrosion to the aluminum tanks, as that is what happened previously, when I had these tanks foamed in place.




I think the safe answer would be to find space near the stearn that can take the equivelent volume of foam. Adding more would be better. 

So, what I say below, is only for discussion  

Given the fill and vent line don't go under and no leaks, you have varying amounts of boyancy provided by the tanks. I think worse case, is two full tanks. While the gas is more boyant than water, probably only enough to possibly float the extra weight from the tanks. 

If both tanks were half empty (balanced) that would probably be enough air to make-up for lost foam. How well that can hold that air and for how long, may be very risky.


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## richg99

PSG-1 Interesting question..."will having two fuel tanks in place of foam provide flotation"....

My un-educated guess is...if the tanks were _empty_ and sealed, they would be similar to foam in displacement, other than the slight additional weight of the metal tanks vs foam. 

However, if they were full of gasoline, then they wouldn't provide much, if any, flotation since gasoline weighs almost as much as water 6.+ vs 8.+ lbs per gallon. Any empty space on top of the tank that contained air and help somewhat. The tiny outside vent of the tank would gradually let a small amount of water in. But that might take a week or more. regards, Rich


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## PSG-1

Well, in any case, I have 4 bilge pumps on board this boat, with the combined ability to pump well over 2500 GPH. So, hopefully, I'll never have to find out whether those fuel tanks provide any flotation!

I suppose I could put a block of foam in front of the starboard side fuel tank, I do have a little room there. But on the port side, I wouldn't be comfortable installing foam, as there is a waterbox on this side, located behind the fuel tank, and that waterbox can get pretty warm. There would have to be some kind of heat shield installed to prevent a possible hazard.


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## MrSimon

You make an excellent point about life jackets. 

As I mentioned before, I don't really care about foam ... I could take it or leave it and don't think it will ever matter. From a safety perspective, I think that if your gas motor is running, you should wear a life jacket. And when its not running, you should have life jackets laying freely somewhere on the deck.

Life jackets save lives!

Foam saves gear, maybe.


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## Jdholmes

PSG-1 said:


> Well, in any case, I have 4 bilge pumps on board this boat, with the combined ability to pump well over 2500 GPH. So, hopefully, I'll never have to find out whether those fuel tanks provide any flotation!
> 
> I suppose I could put a block of foam in front of the starboard side fuel tank, I do have a little room there. But on the port side, I wouldn't be comfortable installing foam, as there is a waterbox on this side, located behind the fuel tank, and that waterbox can get pretty warm. There would have to be some kind of heat shield installed to prevent a possible hazard.



41 gallons a minute? Dang...that's like .70 gallons a second! Yeah I think you should be ok, sir.


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## PSG-1

Jdholmes said:


> PSG-1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, in any case, I have 4 bilge pumps on board this boat, with the combined ability to pump well over 2500 GPH. So, hopefully, I'll never have to find out whether those fuel tanks provide any flotation!
> 
> I suppose I could put a block of foam in front of the starboard side fuel tank, I do have a little room there. But on the port side, I wouldn't be comfortable installing foam, as there is a waterbox on this side, located behind the fuel tank, and that waterbox can get pretty warm. There would have to be some kind of heat shield installed to prevent a possible hazard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 41 gallons a minute? Dang...that's like .70 gallons a second! Yeah I think you should be ok, sir.
Click to expand...




LOL, I hope so. On the deck, there's a 500 GPH fully automatic, self-contained pump. In the bilge/engine compartment, on the starboard side, there's an 1100 GPH controlled by an electronic float switch, then an 800 GPH controlled by a switch at the console. 

Then on the port side of the engine compartment, there's a siphon bilge, that is hooked to the jet pump...the same type of system used in jet skis. As the hose connected to it is 1/2" diameter, I guess-timate its GPH flow to be around 300-350, but that varies, depending on the amount of water exiting the jet nozzle, as more exit pressure equals more suction at the strainer in the bilge. So, at higher RPM, it's obviously going to pump more than it does at idle.

When I had the 2 stroke engine, there was only 1 bilge pump on board, at 1100 GPH. 

But then I got swamped by a 3 foot wake from a para-sailing boat, and it flooded my boat so badly that my engine sucked water and blew a piston. When I installed the 4 stroke, already knowing that 4 strokes are even _less_ tolerant of water than 2 strokes, I went overkill with bilge pumps, and also designed the engine compartment so that water has to be over a foot deep on the main deck before it ever starts leaking into the bilge.


----------



## Jdholmes

I was bored....

How much water does it take to sink this stoneware bowl? 

This much...

Yes...that is dirty dishes...and my wife would kill me for posting it but I figured it would show the water level better...

Too bad it didn't have foam, huh?


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## richg99

OK..now then, don't all laugh at once....but...

some years ago I had a wooden/fiberglass dinghy that I used in the pond. The front compartment was open/empty but sealed with a loose hatch. I stuffed a half-dozen or so 2 liter empty, but sealed with the cap screwed on, pop bottles in there. 

I read someplace that the flotation was equal to foam...(why not) but that the plastic pop bottles wouldn't absorb water--no matter what. Made sense to me at the time...Still does. 

Same thing should be so if one just stuck small sealed water bottles in any open area, as long as the bottles couldn't float out if the boat was swamped. They have to be locked in in some manner.

Rich


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## jigngrub

A very simple test to see if your boat needs foam, has waterlogged foam, doesn't have enough foam, or has the right amount of foam is to launch your boat with the drain plug out and leave it until it doesn't take on anymore water... anybody got the cojones to do this?

I have done this with my Tracker Pro Deep by accident (launch without the plug in), the foam in my boat is so good that the bilge doesn't even fill completely and water doesn't come up through the deck drain. I have fished all day with the plug out, only to discover my mishap when I pull the boat out of the water on the trailer and water is shooting out of the bilge drain like a garden hose turned on all the way. 

My boat is equipped with the closed cell 2 part pourable urethane foam from the factory.






The 2 part urethane foam can become waterlogged, but it has to be submerged for months for this to happen.
A quote from a urethane supplier:


> Common Applications: Our 2LB density marine foam is recommended for void filling in nonstructural applications. This product can be poured underneath decks and inside cavities where a lightweight flotation foam is needed to provide buoyancy. This foam has been tested in accordance with U.S. Coast Guard Regulation # 33 CFR 183.114 . This foam is approximately 95-98% closed cell which resists absorbing water, however continuous water submersion can eventually lead to loss of buoyancy over a period of years. We recommend this product strictly for flotation applications. If looking for a liquid foam for sculpting or casting we recommend using at minimum our 3LB or 4LB density. More questions? [Try our Foam FAQ.]



The blue Dow "Styrofoam" and the pink Owens Corning EPS rigid sheet foam is also closed cell and takes a long time to become waterlogged. The beaded white Styrofoam isn't closed cell and become waterlogged much faster and the beads break down over time.

I would be a very bad scenario to suddenly realize that you really do need the floatation foam that you so stupidly removed from your boat and didn't replace. Especially if you're boating over frigid water or get caught out on the lake in a severe storm.


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## bobbyb

Excellent topic!

When I purchased my tinnie last September the previous owner told me there was always a little water in the bilge area :shock: "a gallon or 2"
I wanted to refloor and carpet so I removed the floor and found the 2 part Urethane factory foam - with some areas of the foam having a touch of mold and a musty smell to it.
The decision was easy for me. The boat is 17 years old, so is the foam. The previous owners comment about water in the bilge - so out it came. 
There was a bit of water creep into the foam, but to be honest not as much as I expected to find. Towards the stern the creep was greatest - about 2" into the foam - and the foam was breaking down.
The bottom line for me - Opening up gave me an opportunity to really clean the alum (Mold) and flood the boat prior to re-installing closed cell foam, looking for the water intrusion.........I found it - the drain under the livewell had a slow leak - and would have continued had I not done what I did.
I used the Closed Cell from Home Depot at 24. a sheet. 
It was a lot of work, but at least now, I know what I have under that floor, so no 2nd guessing + added relief I know this boat will float if god forbid anything happened.

Thxs again to the thread starter - =D> Great and Timely Post =D> 

bobby


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## MrSimon

Now THIS is impressive! Great example of foam keeping a boat not just floating, but functioning as normal. There is a TON of foam in there, good foam, and installed very well. Most bench seat aluminum boats have about 15% of how much foam your boat has.



jigngrub said:


> A very simple test to see if your boat needs foam, has waterlogged foam, doesn't have enough foam, or has the right amount of foam is to launch your boat with the drain plug out and leave it until it doesn't take on anymore water... anybody got the cojones to do this?
> 
> I have done this with my Tracker Pro Deep by accident (launch without the plug in), the foam in my boat is so good that the bilge doesn't even fill completely and water doesn't come up through the deck drain. I have fished all day with the plug out, only to discover my mishap when I pull the boat out of the water on the trailer and water is shooting out of the bilge drain like a garden hose turned on all the way.
> 
> My boat is equipped with the closed cell 2 part pourable urethane foam from the factory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 2 part urethane foam can become waterlogged, but it has to be submerged for months for this to happen.
> A quote from a urethane supplier:
> 
> 
> 
> Common Applications: Our 2LB density marine foam is recommended for void filling in nonstructural applications. This product can be poured underneath decks and inside cavities where a lightweight flotation foam is needed to provide buoyancy. This foam has been tested in accordance with U.S. Coast Guard Regulation # 33 CFR 183.114 . This foam is approximately 95-98% closed cell which resists absorbing water, however continuous water submersion can eventually lead to loss of buoyancy over a period of years. We recommend this product strictly for flotation applications. If looking for a liquid foam for sculpting or casting we recommend using at minimum our 3LB or 4LB density. More questions? [Try our Foam FAQ.]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The blue Dow "Styrofoam" and the pink Owens Corning EPS rigid sheet foam is also closed cell and takes a long time to become waterlogged. The beaded white Styrofoam isn't closed cell and become waterlogged much faster and the beads break down over time.
> 
> I would be a very bad scenario to suddenly realize that you really do need the floatation foam that you so stupidly removed from your boat and didn't replace. Especially if you're boating over frigid water or get caught out on the lake in a severe storm.
Click to expand...


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## bassboy1

There is a big white elephant sitting on the couch here. It's eating all the popcorn, so it needs to go.


One thing that hasn't been discussed here is corrosion. As a result, there is a right way to install foam, and a bunch of wrong ways. I may have missed it somewhere, but I've yet to see any foam installed the right way on this site - it has been hinted at in this thread, but only just.

The problem with many of the pour in foams is that in a wet environment, and especially a salty wet environment, they can actually become corrosive to the aluminum (though, what _isn't_ corrosive to aluminum, really?). Others, while fairly stable, can still cause crevice corrosion, just by trapping minute amounts of water against the aluminum, with no airflow. Airflow is critical for the longevity of aluminum. With a fresh supply of oxygen, aluminum will constantly 'heal,' or produce a protective layer of aluminum oxide. This is what gives and otherwise worthless metal commercial value. However, if the water becomes trapped, with no airflow, the aluminum begins to pull 02 out of the water, leaving the remaining water more acidic. This acid then starts eating away at the metal, and the cycle continues. Say the water that gets trapped is salt water, and the time frame of this issue is expedited greatly.

Furthermore, most foams will absorb water, to some extent. Some pour in foams form a watertight 'shell' which is fine and dandy until you have to trim bits of foam, or bore holes in it for accessories. Also, I think there was some statement about the foam taking months to absorb water. I know the boat isn't going to be semi submerged for months, but simple bilge water will be absorbed. No boat stays completely dry. Even with bilge pumps and the likes, there will still be _some_ water down there, from the sudden rainstorm, to getting back in the boat after swimming, etc. Over the course of a few year's usage, the foam is going to spend a great deal of time in direct contact with water, and will start to absorb some. 

Now that we've pointed out the flaws with the foam, lets discuss the correct way to install it. Pouring into the hull is not a good idea. Ideally, you'd want to build a mold that matches the cavity you are installing in, minus an inch in all directions. Line the mold with plastic, pour the foam, then remove from the mold. Then, completely wrap and seal the foam block with plastic and heavy tape. To install in the cavity, the foam should be resting on 1" furring strips of starboard or UHMW or the likes, to give water adequate room to flow, as well as grant the aluminum the airflow that it needs.


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## xbacksideslider

Good point - there has to be breathing space, or at least easy removal for air drying.

John Galt is one of my heroes.


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## PSG-1

Bassboy is right on with his comment about crevice corrosion. Definitely something to consider.


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## Bigkat650

I was going to run my foam between the rubs but glued to the bottom of the deck as to avoid direct contact with the bottom of the boat. This should keep it dryer, avoid wicking up water, and allow water to flow to the back of the boat unimpeded.


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## Kochy

When we tore the decks off my boat, all we found was waterlogged foam, and we're wanting to replace it. I'm looking at Lowes and homes depot and you guys were talking about a some kind of Closed Cell foam? Can someone send me a link to a sheet of this foam from either Lowes website or Home depot website? Thanks


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## Jdholmes

They will know what you mean when you talk to someone at the pro desk there or that handles the dept. it is extruded/closed cell insulation.


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## bigwave

Crevice corrosion is exactly what happened on my boat hull. I did have a few fittings that I thought were the culprits, but come to think of it all the corrosion was right were the seats were. I put bedliner down to prevent this from causing more damage. I'm willing to bet is was the foam that caused the corrosion, since the seats had damage too, and guess what they were filled with foam. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.


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## PSG-1

I had an issue with crevice corrosion on the fuel tanks in my jetboat.

When I first built the boat with the 2 stroke engine, the tanks were set on top of a sheet of extruded styrofoam, and then I used the expanding foam in the cans to blow around the tanks.

Well, 6 years later, when I went to replace the 2 stroke engine with the 4 stroke high output, I had to pull the tanks, so I could weld, cut and modify my hull. Low and behold, there was surface pitting on the tanks from crevice corrosion caused by being in contact with the foam, particularly on the bottom side of the tanks. Also, the blown foam was waterlogged (I know, the stuff in the cans isn't closed cell...live and learn)

A few areas on the tanks looked really questionable, so I TIG welded those areas, to burn off the corrosion, and lay in some new filler metal, then I pressure tested to make sure everything was good.

So, when I re-installed the new tanks, I welded some aluminum channel to the hull of my boat, and used 5200 to glue strips of rubber to the top of those channels, and I have them positioned so that they are only in contact with the mounting bracket on the ends of the tanks, that way, the tanks are elevated off the floor by an inch, and they're not in contact with anything that can cause any further corrosion.

Now you know why I have an aversion to putting any foam in the transom of my boat around my fuel tanks!


----------



## jigngrub

bassboy1 said:


> There is a big white elephant sitting on the couch here. It's eating all the popcorn, so it needs to go.
> 
> 
> One thing that hasn't been discussed here is corrosion. As a result, there is a right way to install foam, and a bunch of wrong ways. I may have missed it somewhere, but I've yet to see any foam installed the right way on this site - it has been hinted at in this thread, but only just.
> 
> The problem with many of the pour in foams is that in a wet environment, and especially a salty wet environment, they can actually become corrosive to the aluminum (though, what _isn't_ corrosive to aluminum, really?). Others, while fairly stable, can still cause crevice corrosion, just by trapping minute amounts of water against the aluminum, with no airflow. Airflow is critical for the longevity of aluminum. With a fresh supply of oxygen, aluminum will constantly 'heal,' or produce a protective layer of aluminum oxide. This is what gives and otherwise worthless metal commercial value. However, if the water becomes trapped, with no airflow, the aluminum begins to pull 02 out of the water, leaving the remaining water more acidic. This acid then starts eating away at the metal, and the cycle continues. Say the water that gets trapped is salt water, and the time frame of this issue is expedited greatly.
> 
> Furthermore, most foams will absorb water, to some extent. Some pour in foams form a watertight 'shell' which is fine and dandy until you have to trim bits of foam, or bore holes in it for accessories. Also, I think there was some statement about the foam taking months to absorb water. I know the boat isn't going to be semi submerged for months, but simple bilge water will be absorbed. No boat stays completely dry. Even with bilge pumps and the likes, there will still be _some_ water down there, from the sudden rainstorm, to getting back in the boat after swimming, etc. Over the course of a few year's usage, the foam is going to spend a great deal of time in direct contact with water, and will start to absorb some.
> 
> Now that we've pointed out the flaws with the foam, lets discuss the correct way to install it. Pouring into the hull is not a good idea. Ideally, you'd want to build a mold that matches the cavity you are installing in, minus an inch in all directions. Line the mold with plastic, pour the foam, then remove from the mold. Then, completely wrap and seal the foam block with plastic and heavy tape. To install in the cavity, the foam should be resting on 1" furring strips of starboard or UHMW or the likes, to give water adequate room to flow, as well as grant the aluminum the airflow that it needs.



Sooo, did you launch your boat without the plug in to see how much water it would take on?

Crevice corrosion can occur anywhere on aluminum where water sets for a period of time. In between your transom wood and the outer skin, under wet carpet, and under wet leaves is one of the worst places... you get the tannic acid and the oxygen depleted water.

Water doesn't have to be saltwater to cause corrosion on aluminum, fresh water will corrode aluminum if it sets long enough. Throw in some acidic rain and it corrodes even faster.

*BUT!* an aluminum boat with proper drainage in the bilge (like mine), that is properly cared for and maintained will not have corrosion problems. Keep your boat covered or garage kept when not in use, and good repair with no leaks and it doesn't matter how much or what kind of floatation foam you have... you'll never have any corrosion problems. I keep my boat covered when not in use and I pull the drain plug after every outing to make sure the bilge is dry and I have no leaks.

It is people that neglect their boats and leave them exposed to the elements that have problems with saturated foam and corrosion... and it's their own fault!


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## bassboy1

> Sooo, did you launch your boat without the plug in to see how much water it would take on?



Never in that post did I say my boats don't have flotation foam. I only mentioned the downfalls of incorrectly installed foam, and the correct method of installation. Though entirely irrelevant, I will note that I have launched nearly every boat I've ever owned without the plug (though never intentionally), and never lost a single one. 



> Crevice corrosion can occur anywhere on aluminum where water sets for a period of time. _In between your transom wood_



Hence why in past posts, I often harp against wood transoms, or wood anywhere. That, along with carpeted trailer bunks. But, this post was discussing flotation foam, not wood transoms, so I didn't discuss that.



> Water doesn't have to be saltwater to cause corrosion on aluminum



Don't believe I said it did have to be saltwater. I'm fairly sure I didn't. I just said that would expedite the process.



> BUT! an aluminum boat with proper drainage in the bilge (like mine), that is properly cared for and maintained will not have corrosion problems. Keep your boat covered or garage kept when not in use, and good repair with no leaks and it doesn't matter how much or what kind of floatation foam you have... you'll never have any corrosion problems. I keep my boat covered when not in use and I pull the drain plug after every outing to make sure the bilge is dry and I have no leaks.



Yes, that is nice, but at the end of the day, we are talking about boats here. They are used in some of the harshest environments in the world, and while it is nice to keep them in a climate controlled garage, that is not going to be the case for many of us. As a result, someone with a boat like yours can keep the boat indoors, clean, dry, and rarely used, and never see corrosion problems. Or, someone can keep the boat outside, moored at a dock all summer, let it fill up with snow, etc, etc, and with a slightly different flotation foam installation methods, can have the same results. I'd personally rather everything be tougher than train wheels, and if the boat happens to get pampered, it will not hurt a thing - merely outlast the owner. On the flip side, if the boat is built with shortcuts, and it for some reason, gets abused, there will be problems. 

I'm not saying that a boat like yours is going to corrode apart, and develop pin holes by the end of the week. Based on the original post in this thread, it seemed the poster was looking for a civil discussion to bring up facts pertaining to flotation foam, which is a somewhat heavily debated subject on this forum. The intention of my first post was solely to point out some of the corrosion issues that the foam can cause, _in a marine environment_, which to the best of my knowledge, does not include garages, covers and sponge drying. The next portion of my post was to provide the method in which is potential problem can be avoided from the get go. No portion of my post was directed at any one person, or any one boat - just a broad generalization into the best ways of completing a task, and furthering this educational discussion.



This next part has absolutely nothing to do with my previous posts, but instead contains my educated opinion on flotation foam vs. other methods of flotation. Please note that I'm not implying that one should forgo flotation, but instead that there may be better ways to skin the same cat.

My personal opinion of flotation foam is not very high. I'm much more comfortable with seal welded, pressure tested airspaces. However, on boats under 20', this becomes problematic. It's not practical on riveted boats, for obvious reasons. It even can pose construction issues on smaller welded boats. 
Furthermore, on boats under 20', the USCG does not allow flotation airspaces to be integral with the hull. So, while on a 21' boat, it is perfectly acceptable to weld in and pressure test the deck, on a 19' boat, air spaces have to be entirely separate 'tanks.' The problem here is that the regulations are all inclusive, covering a wide array of boat designs and materials. Therefore, the regulations are adjusted for size alone, ignoring many other [more] important variables. 
Therefore, flotation foam is a necessary evil on small boats. With a few simple steps, it is able to be a non issue.


----------



## FuzzyGrub

I never heard of crevise corrosion, so had to look it up.

Crevice corrosion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crevice_corrosion 
galvanic corrosion: two connected metals + single environment 
crevice corrosion: one metal part + two connected environments


The acid part doesn't make sense to me, ie Pulling O2 out of water shouldn't create an acid. Acid generally needs more O2 plus another element, sulfur, nitrogen, clorine, or phospherous. Where is that coming from? 

Sulfuric acid: H2SO4 
Nitric acid: HNO3 
Hydrochloric acid: HCL 
Phosphoric acid: H3PO4 

I think you might be refering more to aluminum pitting corrosion. 

So we should paint the inside to make sure water is not touching raw aluminum?


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## bassboy1

Poultice corrosion, a form of crevice corrosion. This is the term I've always used, but I'd say it is pretty similar to wikipedia's version of pitting corrosion.
https://corrosion-doctors.org/Forms-crevice/Poultice.htm

As far as the water becoming acidic, free hydrogen molecules can decrease the pH. The constantly forming aluminum oxide is created using Aluminum and oxygen molecules, leaving free hydrogen molecules in the water. Furthermore, decaying organic matter (plankton, etc. that would normally be found in lakewater) will also consume oxygen, leaving the stagnant water slightly acidic.

https://imnh.isu.edu/digitalatlas/hydr/basics/main/chmtxt.htm


----------



## FuzzyGrub

Have you experienced this in a boat? I'd like to see some pictures if possible. Wouldn't paint make an effective barrier to prevent this process from occuring? ie little or no contact with the water.


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## Kochy

Jdholmes said:


> They will know what you mean when you talk to someone at the pro desk there or that handles the dept. it is extruded/closed cell insulation.



Yeah, We went to Lowes the other day, and YBC ((Your building Centers.)) And they had no idea what we were talking about.. But we went to A Marine, and they said to buy Water resistant, Foam, and wrap it in the plastic and tape it, with the taped side facing up towards the underside of the deck, So we're going to do that.


----------



## bassboy1

FuzzyGrub said:


> Have you experienced this in a boat? I'd like to see some pictures if possible. Wouldn't paint make an effective barrier to prevent this process from occuring? ie little or no contact with the water.



Yes I've seen this. Fortunately, every time I've seen it in person, the boats were used in freshwater, so the damage was much less extensive. I've seen pictures from certain builders that I know, and trust, of what the outcome is like in saltwater, and it isn't pretty. 

My uneducated opinion on the paint is that yes, it very well could prevent this from occurring. That being said, I've never had any first hand experience with paint under foam, so I will not say for sure. Furthermore, painting aluminum is also a subject for which I've got very little experience with, so I'm certainly the wrong person to ask in that regard.


----------



## jigngrub

Getting back to the subject:

*Foam* it can save your life and keep your boat from going to the bottom.

*Waterlogged Foam* isn't the foams fault and it isn't the boats fault, it is the boat owners fault for permitting water intrusion and neglecting their boat.

*No Foam* is a very foolish mistake and may cost you your boat, or your life, or both.

Keeping your boat covered and protected from the elements while it's not in use will greatly extend the life of your boat.

Not protecting your boat from the elements will/can cause water intrusion damage, freeze thaw damage, and UV damage... and all will age your boat quickly requiring much more work and maintenance.


----------



## Jdholmes

jigngrub said:


> Getting back to the subject:
> 
> *Foam* it can save your life and keep your boat from going to the bottom.
> 
> *Waterlogged Foam* isn't the foams fault and it isn't the boats fault, it is the boat owners fault for permitting water intrusion and neglecting their boat.
> 
> *No Foam* is a very foolish mistake and may cost you your boat, or your life, or both.
> .



Calling people fools isn't nice.


----------



## jigngrub

Jdholmes said:


> Calling people fools isn't nice.



It sounded better than stupid, idiotic, or moronic.


----------



## dyeguy1212

jigngrub said:


> Jdholmes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Calling people fools isn't nice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It sounded better than stupid, idiotic, or moronic.
Click to expand...


x2...


----------



## Jdholmes

And yet is still inappropriate. Just because someone holds different opinions then you does not make them foolish, idiotic, moronic or any other insult you may wish to throw out there.


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## PSG-1

Can't speak for everyone else, but this here doofus (myself) was at least smart enough to compensate for the removal of foam by having 4 bilge pumps! :mrgreen:


----------



## dyeguy1212

Jdholmes said:


> And yet is still inappropriate. Just because someone holds different opinions then you does not make them foolish, idiotic, moronic or any other insult you may wish to throw out there.



That's arguable. When I jump in trying to save some fool/idiot/moron from drowning because he thought the life jacket buried in a compartment, or a 12 volt bilge pump was going to save his rear end when a ski boat throws a 2 footer over the side of his boat, I'm gonna call him every name in the book.

All because he didn't think foam was important. "That'll never happen to me" is a FOOLISH mentality.


I fail to see why being outwardly careless shouldn't be viewed as foolish. Just because you don't find foam important, or think a fire extinguisher isn't necessary, doesn't mean the rest of us can't voice our opinion.


And for the record, using the adjective "foolish" is not the same as calling someone a fool. Let's avoid needlessly turning things into personal attacks.


----------



## Jdholmes

And this is the point where this kind of thread always goes to crap.

1. I never said foam wasn't appropriate.

2. I never said a fire extinguisher wasn't necessary. Read my posts more thoroughly next time you try to troll.

Regardless of if you think that everyone on here that does not have foam in their boat is a fool, it does not give you right to express that to everyone...keep it to yourself.

From my outlook most of the folks who have chosen not to use foam have done so taking a calculated risk. They have weighed the possibilities of them needing it, their location etc. taken into account and have made the determination that it is not something that they are willing or interested at that particular time investing in.

It is your right to think that foolish...but keep it to yourself. You are welcome to voice your opinion...that does not require an insulting approach,


----------



## dyeguy1212

Jdholmes said:


> And this is the point where this kind of thread always goes to crap.
> 
> 1. I never said foam wasn't appropriate.
> 
> 2. I never said a fire extinguisher wasn't necessary. Read my posts more thoroughly next time you try to troll.
> 
> Regardless of if you think that everyone on here that does not have foam in their boat is a fool, it does not give you right to express that to everyone...keep it to yourself.
> 
> From my outlook most of the folks who have chosen not to use foam have done so taking a calculated risk. They have weighed the possibilities of them needing it, their location etc. taken into account and have made the determination that it is not something that they are willing or interested at that particular time investing in.
> 
> It is your right to think that foolish...but keep it to yourself. You are welcome to voice your opinion...that does not require an insulting approach,



No one said that you thought foam wasn't important. Again, don't take everything as a personal attack. THAT'S when threads go to crap. It's just discussion, not every post is a rebuttal.


----------



## jigngrub

Jdholmes said:


> Calling people fools isn't nice.



I didn't necessarily call anyone a fool, a person can act foolishly and do foolish things without being a complete fool.

... but I don't think I'd give someone that removes their floatation foam and doesn't replace it that much credit.

I'm sure that people that remove their foam and don't replace it are unknowing (ignorant) of the facts of what it does, how important it is, and what can cause problems with it.

... and before you go whining about the word ignorant, here is the definition:

ig·no·rant/ˈignərənt/
Adjective:
1.Lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
2.Lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular: "ignorant of astronomy".

I used the word in the context of definition #2.


----------



## Jdholmes

.


----------



## MrSimon

I kind of started skimming a bit, but still got a kick out of this thread.

I'm pretty much in the camp of "I wouldn't remove good foam, but I don't use it when I modify boats". I also tend to believe its usefulness is overstated.

So that kind of puts me in the minority of folks on here ..... and makes me the "target" of certain comments.

It don't bother me one bit!! This is one of the nicest and friendliest internet forums I've ever participated in.  The guys on here are down right good people. So, if some folks think my not using foam is foolish, I'm fine with that. I'm a big boy, I can take it. I don't get bent out of shape when someone thinks differently than me.

So in short .... please people stop complaining and trying to point out where other people were insensitive, wrong, whatever .... just let it go.


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## JamesM56alum

Jesus guy's who cares lol it's not like any one on here is going to be any where near some one sinking at any point and 90% of the time with or with out foam you're never far enough away from shore that your bulge pump not handle the problem. 

To foam or not to foam that is the question, my answer is WHO CARE'S do what you want, and mind your own business if it's not your own boat!


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## PSG-1

JamesM56alum said:


> Jesus guy's who cares lol it's not like any one on here is going to be any where near some one sinking at any point and 90% of the time with or with out foam you're never far enough away from shore that your bulge pump not handle the problem.
> 
> To foam or not to foam that is the question, my answer is WHO CARE'S do what you want, and mind your own business if it's not your own boat!




I've been swamped by a para-sailing boat, operated by a common boater with no common courtesy. It put so much water in my boat, it flooded the engine compartment, and destroyed my engine. I wasn't close to sinking, and foam wouldn't have helped in this particular case. A baseball bat to the SOB's kneecaps might have helped, but then again, I would have gone to jail for handling it in that manner. I took it to court, but of course, with no witnesses on my boat, and the defendant having his first mate lie for him, he got away with it, free to do it again, as this is not the first time this 'paper captain' has swamped somebody. Hopefully, the next time it happens, it will involve a family member of one of the members of the jury that let him walk free, that would be fitting karma.

With all that said, I DO understand the importance of foam. I'd like to have more foam in my boat, but again, with the modifications I have, there's just no room for it.


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## dyeguy1212

PSG-1 said:


> JamesM56alum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus guy's who cares lol it's not like any one on here is going to be any where near some one sinking at any point and 90% of the time with or with out foam you're never far enough away from shore that your bulge pump not handle the problem.
> 
> To foam or not to foam that is the question, my answer is WHO CARE'S do what you want, and mind your own business if it's not your own boat!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been swamped by a para-sailing boat, operated by a common boater with no common courtesy. It put so much water in my boat, it flooded the engine compartment, and destroyed my engine. I wasn't close to sinking, and foam wouldn't have helped in this particular case. A baseball bat to the SOB's kneecaps might have helped, but then again, I would have gone to jail for handling it in that manner. I took it to court, but of course, with no witnesses on my boat, and the defendant having his first mate lie for him, he got away with it, free to do it again, as this is not the first time this 'paper captain' has swamped somebody. Hopefully, the next time it happens, it will involve a family member of one of the members of the jury that let him walk free, that would be fitting karma.
> 
> With all that said, I DO understand the importance of foam. I'd like to have more foam in my boat, but again, with the modifications I have, there's just no room for it.
Click to expand...



My point exactly. I've been close to getting swamped in a pretty big 17 foot boat on a small inland lake, so I find it hard to justify not to take every precaution in a little 14 foot jon boat, which is what gets modded majority of the time. Especially when it's powered by a trolling motor, which will take it's sweet time getting your boat into the right position to take on a rouge wave.


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## Mojo^

I suppose it's a matter of perception and application. Personally, I don't fish on big water and if I did it wouldn't be in a Jon. There are few places where I fish that allows anything over a 25 hp. or has speed restrictions (idle only) or that I couldn't walk out of if the boat were to suddenly break open and immediately sink to the bottom so when I refurbished mine last year I opted not to replace any of the foam. It's not stupid or moronic or anything else other than just not needed for how I use my boat. Besides, I spent most of last Summer cleaning-up corrosion from underneath water logged foam (brackish water) that I pulled out when I refurbished the boat and I wasn't eager to go back down that road again. 

Last year I saw an ad where a guy was giving away his Jon. All you had to do was come and get it. The problem was that it was sitting on the bottom of a lake still tied to his dock. A downpour from a thunderstorm one night filled the boat while he slept and it sank to the bottom. Living in Middle Georgia, this is more of a probability and concern for me that getting swamped by another boat or jet ski or something similar. At the first sign of rain, I'm heading to the ramp and if I don't make it I have a 750 GPH bilge pump that, at a minimum, will at least get me to the bank and I'm okay with that.


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## RiverBottomOutdoors

Ha... Like I said, some people are a little overzealous about foam.


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## bigwave

Everyone has heard the old saying about opinions, they are like assxxxxx, everyone has one....that being said I am more worried about getting hit by lightning than I am about sinking. :lol: I am just trying to joke here....foam is important.

Someone posted that there a bunch of great people with lots of good advise on this website, I total agree. Everyone should just take each others opinions with a grain of salt.....try not to attack each other and learn from trial and error. I think that most people take personal safety as a number one priority foam or no foam..to each his own.


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## jigngrub

bigwave said:


> I think that most people take personal safety as a number one priority foam or no foam..to each his own.



Personal safety is second for me, the safety of my passengers comes first. My family and friends fish with me and their safety is utmost in my mind when they're in the boat.


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## JamesM56alum

We have some extremely uptight people on this forum... :roll:


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## bigwave

jigngrub said:


> bigwave said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that most people take personal safety as a number one priority foam or no foam..to each his own.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personal safety is second for me, the safety of my passengers comes first. My family and friends fish with me and their safety is utmost in my mind when they're in the boat.
Click to expand...


Most of the time I fish alone or with my dog. If I have a friend or family on my boat they come first....of course. My jonboat is just that.....for my offshore boat I have all the necessary equipment. We travel with two epirbs, more pfd than passengers,vhf handheld,sat phone, flare kits, mre's, first aid kit,a couple of 9mm,and even a de-fibulatror, and a self contained life raft. When your more than 100nm offshore the coasties are at least 30mins away. In my jonboat this is overkill since I could walk to land from most of the spots I fish from. Most people know their limits, some people do not.


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## PSG-1

Well, after thinking about everything, I went to a building supply store today, and I bought a billet of closed-cell foam (the type that was once commonly used for floating docks) to put some pieces in my jetboat.

Already got a block cut to fit on the starboard side, in front of the fuel tank, it's about 8x12x12" Not sure what the buoyancy per cubic foot is for this stuff, but there's a little less than a cubic foot in this block on the starboard side, so, at least there's something there now, besides an empty space to fill with water if the boat starts sinking.

Tomorrow, I'll drill out the rivets on the port deck plate, and see if there's any place I can put a block of foam on that side. I do have to consider that there is a muffler/waterbox on that side, and it can get rather warm, so, I can't locate the foam too close to it, and I probably need to use a piece of aluminum sheet as a heat shield. Worst case scenario, if there's no room for a block of foam, the waterbox is about 10 inches in diameter, and about a foot long, and mostly filled with air, so, that will provide SOME buoyancy.

Also, the bow area is lacking in foam, I noticed that when I installed the prow lights. So, I'll see if I can remove the prow lights, and cut small pieces of foam, and put them in there (yeah, it's not a solid piece of foam like it should be, but at least something is better than nothing).

Once it's all done, I'll feel better about the seaworthiness of the boat.


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## richg99

Foam that fills an empty cavity will give you a better chance of floating as opposed to sinking. 

From what I've read, foam...sealed water bottles...cork...etc. replace the space that water might take up. They don't add "buoyancy" on their own. But....they prevent water from filling that very same space.

I found this article of interest.

https://www.instructables.com/id/Project-rRaft-Building-a-Raft-out-of-Water-Bottl/

Rich


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## jigngrub

PSG-1 said:


> Well, after thinking about everything, I went to a building supply store today, and I bought a billet of closed-cell foam (the type that was once commonly used for floating docks) to put some pieces in my jetboat.
> 
> Already got a block cut to fit on the starboard side, in front of the fuel tank, it's about 8x12x12" Not sure what the buoyancy per cubic foot is for this stuff, but there's a little less than a cubic foot in this block on the starboard side, so, at least there's something there now, besides an empty space to fill with water if the boat starts sinking.
> 
> Tomorrow, I'll drill out the rivets on the port deck plate, and see if there's any place I can put a block of foam on that side. I do have to consider that there is a muffler/waterbox on that side, and it can get rather warm, so, I can't locate the foam too close to it, and I probably need to use a piece of aluminum sheet as a heat shield. Worst case scenario, if there's no room for a block of foam, the waterbox is about 10 inches in diameter, and about a foot long, and mostly filled with air, so, that will provide SOME buoyancy.
> 
> Also, the bow area is lacking in foam, I noticed that when I installed the prow lights. So, I'll see if I can remove the prow lights, and cut small pieces of foam, and put them in there (yeah, it's not a solid piece of foam like it should be, but at least something is better than nothing).
> 
> Once it's all done, I'll feel better about the seaworthiness of the boat.



Closed cell foam, EPS or 2 part urethane floats about 60 lbs. per cubic foot.


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