# 56 Johnson 15 hp hard to start.



## acwd (Nov 13, 2013)

As the title says. I have done everything I can think of. Checked the spark jumps a 1/4"+ gap, points at .020. Cleaned the carb twice. Tried different starting steps. Nothing seems to make it easier. It like 6 or 7 or sometimes even more pulls, hot or cold dont matter. Tank is pressured up pumped the primer every time to make sure that there is gas to the carb. I did notice that the exhaust cover gasket is leaking some and I will fix that this winter if i can find a gasket. Going to order a carb kit and new packing for the jets and see if that does any good. Any other ideas??

Thanks
Steve
P.S. It has new plugs also.


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## Pappy (Nov 13, 2013)

Check to make sure the choke blade is closing all the way. Old linkage and wear may be allowing the blade to stand open a little.
If you have a buddy around have him manually close it and see if you can tell a difference. 
Those engines should start a lot faster than that.


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## cajuncook1 (Nov 13, 2013)

acwd, I don't know if you have included this information in a past post, but I am just jumping on this post, so please indulge my questions.
*
Have you checked compression on both cylinders? * If so, what are the numbers? If you haven't the you can call local auto parts store and see if they will loan one for a deposit. Some auto part sellers do.

** If you have poor compression, it will definitely cause your motor run poorly or not at all.


Do you have the original coils or they new?? Can you post a picture of your ignition system??


Fuel delivery can be inhibited by the filter in the glass bowl below the carburetor bowl. Part number 63 in the diagram. Unscrew part 67 and remove the filter element. Even though I may look clean, the pores may be clogged with old varnished gas/oil mix. Soak it in half and half warm water and Pinesol for about an hour. Rinse and blow out with compressed air. You will be surprised of all the junk that will come out. Repeat as necessary. 

Hopefully you should get better fuel delivery, because that is where your fuel is reaching your carburetor. Clogged up filter poor fuel delivery.


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## acwd (Nov 13, 2013)

Ok here is what I checked. The choke seems closed all the way. Cant close it anymore with the lever on the side of the carb, with the choke knob pulled out. As for compression its 90 psi on both cylinders. The coils arent originals they dont appear to be very old. Look made from modern materials. As for the filter, the pic you posted isnt the same as mine. Mine the filter mounts on the side of the block so you can service it easier I guess. But anyway it was cleaned before I started using it. May just have to get a new one or a different filter. It has always started like this since I have had it which is only about half a year but only ran it a couple of times. It runs great once you get it started. I had a problem with it earlier thought the prop was wrong came to find out the plug had too long of reach and was hitting the top of the piston. Got different plugs with a short reach and fixed that problem. 

Steve


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## cajuncook1 (Nov 13, 2013)

- Steve, can you post the model number of your motor.

- How long have you had this motor or is it new to you??

- Has your motor been converted to fuel pump system or is it still the original dual hose with the pressure tank system??



> I did notice that the exhaust cover gasket is leaking some and I will fix that this winter if i can find a gasket.



- Does it look like someone has removed the exhaust cover plate?? 


If someone has had the exhaust cover off before, there may have been some issues with the motor before. If the exhaust ports get clogged up with coke and carbon, then that can create a fuel deliver issue. The flow entering the crankcase/power head must equal the flow going out.

But, before going off on wild goose chases, please answer the above questions.


thanks,

David


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## acwd (Nov 13, 2013)

Model FDE-10
Got it back in May or June. Got the pressurized tank and replaced the diaphragm and gasket because it leaked out the primer shaft. Put new line on it too. As for the exhaust cover it dont look like its been off in a while. Looks like its been rebuilt at one time or another because the gaskets have no paint on them.

Steve


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## acwd (Nov 13, 2013)

https://www.marineengine.com/parts/vintage-evinrude-johnson/376749/catalog.html?/parts/vintage-evinrude-johnson/376749/37674900001.htm
There is mine

Steve


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## dieselfixer (Nov 14, 2013)

My brand new 9.9 Mercury 4 stroke was doing the same as your engine, I got rid of regular 10% ethanol gas and am now using 91 octaine no ethanol gas. The engine now starts on 1 maybe 2 pulls when cold and 1 pull every time when it is warmed up it has more power and runs a lot better.


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## cajuncook1 (Nov 14, 2013)

Steve, I see you have an electric start....fancy for those days....lol Nice score


Steve, I would like to make a recommendation. There is a website that is dedicated to restoring antique and vintage outboard. It is called AOMCI (Antique Outboard Motor Club Inc). To join the site is free just like this one, but there are members there who are real mechanics and restorers from back in the day that know your motor like the back of their hand. Their guidance and knowledge is awesome. I have a member there for 3 yrs and have learned a lot. I enjoyed it so much I became a paid member. I not saying for you to do the same, because to post and ask questions is free.


*Here is the website link and you can register there.*


https://www.aomci.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl


If you copy and paste the information you provided in the quote below, it will get you off to a good start as far as information they need to help you out. Your going to be surprised of the expertise there. I have rebuilt many motors with there help. I have a 1955 15hp Fastwin Johnson. Great runner!!!



> Model FDE-10
> Got it back in May or June. Got the pressurized tank and replaced the diaphragm and gasket because it leaked out the primer shaft. Put new line on it too. As for the exhaust cover it dont look like its been off in a while. Looks like its been rebuilt at one time or another because the gaskets have no paint on them.
> 
> Ok here is what I checked. The choke seems closed all the way. Cant close it anymore with the lever on the side of the carb, with the choke knob pulled out. As for compression its 90 psi on both cylinders. The coils arent originals they dont appear to be very old. Look made from modern materials. As for the filter, it was cleaned before I started using it. May just have to get a new one or a different filter. It has always started like this since I have had it which is only about half a year but only ran it a couple of times. It runs great once you get it started. I had a problem with it earlier thought the prop was wrong came to find out the plug had too long of reach and was hitting the top of the piston. Got different plugs with a short reach and fixed that problem.
> ...




If you wish to stay here, I will be glad to help you.

David (cajuncook)


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## Pappy (Nov 14, 2013)

Okay apparently the choke is closing. 
Lets see if it is a fuel delivery issue.
I take it you are running a minimum of 24:1 fuel oil ratio? 
Get a squirt bottle and partly fill with the fuel/oil mix
With a cold engine, open the choke and the throttle blade and give the engine a couple of squirts right down the carb.
Close the throttle to your normal starting position. Choke on.
How many pulls to start? Any improvement?


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## acwd (Nov 14, 2013)

I am using non ethanol gas I think its 89 octane. 24 to 1 oil mix. Yeah I wish the starter was on her it was gone when I bought it. Would like to have one for it but havent located one. Pappy I will try that this weekend as its going to be warm for a few days then turn off cold again. I will get back to you guys on this in a few days.

Steve


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## cajuncook1 (Nov 14, 2013)

*Make sure these are your beginning carburetor settings:*

*These are going to be the initial settings for the carburetor for starting purposes.* Your will later fine tune the settings.

Facing the carburetor you will notice (top) slow speed/idle knob and the (bottom) high speed needle and knob

- Top needle is your slow idle needle. You will gently turn in (clockwise) until the needle is gently seated..please don't force. Once seated, you will turn out (counter clockwise) the slow idle needle 1 1/2 turns. Leave it there for the time being.

- Bottom needle is your high speed needle. You will gently turn in (clockwise) until the needle is gently seated..please don't force. Once seated, you will turn out (counter clockwise) the slow idle needle 1 turn. Leave it there for the time being. 




> (Carburetor Adjustments - Two Adjustable N/Vs)
> (J. Reeves)
> 
> Initial settings are: Bottom high speed = seat gently (turn needle clockwise), then open 1 turn out(counter clockwise). Top slow speed = seat gently(turn needle clockwise), then open 1-1/2 turns out (counter clockwise.
> ...


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## acwd (Mar 25, 2014)

I know its been awhile but things got warm and got the motor out today. I squirted some gas mix in the carb and pulled the choke. Second pull it hit then nothing. So I pulled the carb off and cleaned it. Put it all back together and adjusted the low and high speed jets per instructions. it wouldnt hit at all. Opened both of them up some and tried it again. Finally got it to hit. High speed is like 2 rounds out from seat and the low speed is way out like 5 or 6 rounds. I think the problem lies in the top of the carb where the low speed jet feeds into the throat. Theres a plug on top and I think it comes in a carb kit. Is this whats making it a PIA to start? Carb kit will be ordered and soaked with the plugs removed. Just wanting to make sure if this is all I might need when ordering parts.

Steve


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## Pappy (Mar 26, 2014)

Very well could be the issue.
Also sounds like a missing nozzle well gasket.

When removing that plug....................
Be careful !!
Drill a 1/8" hole in the center of the plug being careful not to let the drill bit hit the calibration pocket when the bit goes through the plug. 
Install a small punch and pry out the plug. 
Soak the carburetor. Hope you have removed the packings out of the carb at this point as well.
Run a piece of copper wire through all passages. 
When installing the plug I place the carb body on a vice with the jaws open far enough to fit around the float hanger castings. This allows the gasket surface to sit flat on the vice. 
Place the new plug in the hole and take a small socket that will fit dead center in the plug and leave a wide margin around the socket. A flat punch will do as well as a substitute. Gently tap it into place enough to where you are sure the sides have expanded and sealed. If in doubt its always accepted to smear a sealer around the edge if you want to after installation.


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## SumDumGuy (Mar 26, 2014)

Like you mentioned and know those needles (especially the low) seem to be way too far out.

Definitely put a dab of sealer on the plug as Pappy mentioned.


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## acwd (Mar 26, 2014)

nozzle gasket? Where is that located? Or do you mean the packing washers?

Steve


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## Boat2fast (Mar 26, 2014)

I found two things that ruin slow speed running on the FD10. Nothing is slower than cranking speed.

(1) Coils. The coils need to be just inside the flywheel. If they are pushed back, they wont fire at low RPM. OMC has/had a tool for this. It's a steel ring that fits snug on the plate. The coils are pushed out against the ring and the screws tightened. That puts em right at the passing magnet.

(2) Crankshaft seals. The crankcase is under highest vacuum at slow speeds when drawing mix from the closed carb. If the crank seal next to one cylinder is leaking, the mix gets lean for that cylinder. You can compensate with the slow speed mix adjustment _except_ it over-richens the 'good' cylinder. There goes idle quality. If the seal gets worse, the cylinder will pop back or sneeze. If both seals go bad you can pull till you're blue in the face and it won't fire. Pappy's squirt bottle is a good indicator here, according to your results. Replacing old crank seals is almost a requirement on old motors. 

If your FD10 is tight, not leaking with good compression, it should be able to idle down to practically nothing. They will start 1 pull when all is right. Johnson built their reputation on reliability. It's 58 years old...after all.

Here's a video of mine. This is how it ran before the crank seal(s) started leaking. Now it needs a new set of seals. 
https://www.dropshots.com/boat2fast#albums/Running Videos/2010-07-26/13:09:04
Use guest password: twist'er


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## acwd (Mar 26, 2014)

I pulled the plug on the top of the carb today and its clean in there. So is the top seal and bottom seal the same? I cant find the bottom seal listed. They arent that high so what will it hurt?

Steve


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## acwd (Apr 17, 2014)

Ok replaced the bottom seal on the crankcase. It wasnt in there right. Its worse than ever on starting. I have great spark it jumps a 3/8+ of a inch. So I did some experimenting. I did get it running finally. I can adjust both high and low speed jets in the start position on the grip. they both change the way it runs. Normal? So I shut it off and bled the pressure off the tank and let it sit for over 2 hours. Can back tightened the cap on the tank pulled the choke and fired right off. I think its flooding itself setting with pressure on the tank. I put a carb kit in it. Set the float level as in the book. I give up!

Steve


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## Pappy (Apr 18, 2014)

If the carb is flooding from tank pressure the fuel will be visible exiting the front of the carburetor. Are you seeing this?
Yes, both needles are capable of changing low speed running. The low speed system is supplied through the high speed system so if the high speed needle sufficiently restricts the passage the low speed will be affected. 
BTW - The nozzle well gasket is #58 on the parts diagram. That has to be in there. 
You said you got a kit.......who's kit and what all was in it?


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## acwd (Apr 18, 2014)

is the nozzle well gasket that you are talking about the one between the top and float bowl that fits around the nozzle? If so its there. The kit is a OMC kit from marine engine .com. I did some more experimenting yesterday afternoon. I let it sit with tank pressure all afternoon til about 5. Approx. 4 hours. Walked over pulled the choke and gave her a pull fired off. WTF! So I disconnected the fuel line and run it dry. Reconnected the line and pushed the primer button 4 or 5 times. Then pulled my ass off then it finally started. I dont know if its me or the motor! It has sit all night with pressure so I will see how it starts this morning. I do know this is how the high and low needles are set right now. The high one is about a half a round out and the low is two rounds out. So how many pumps should does the primer button need? Also according to the starting instructions in the book I found online it said to choke it to kill it? I dont do that. Could that have a bearing on this?

Steve


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## Pappy (Apr 18, 2014)

The low speed sounds like it is too far out. When it starts again start turning it in until the engine speeds up by itself then either spits lean or RPM starts to drop off then back out around 1/4 turn or a little more. You may want to back the high speed out to around 3/4 turn while doing this. The high speed can then be tuned and finally the low speed may require a minor "trim".
If you have an OMC kit there should have been several packing washers in there. I use two per needle and one nylon one. The nylon one is placed last so it will be a bearing between the packings and the jam nut. 
As far as how many pumps? All you are doing is filling the lines, filter and fuel bowl until the needle closes the fuel off. Once the bowl is full any additional pumping is doing nothing.


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## acwd (Apr 19, 2014)

I took the carb back off and changed the packing around the needles. I didnt have it in there right and added some packing washers. I checked the float level and dropped it some it looked a little high. Put it back together and primed it up and pulled the rope and fired off. Adjusted the needles like you said. It wouldnt idle at all so it came back out to about 2 turns out. under that it sneezes and dies. and the high speed one comes out about the same as before. I dont know what is going on. Going to run it on the lake today and see how it does. I am pretty good with motors and such but this one is eating my lunch!

Steve


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## acwd (Apr 20, 2014)

Well took it to the lake yesterday. Didnt think I was ever going to get it started. But finally did. Adjusted everything in gear. High speed needle is about 3/4 out and low speed is 1 1/2 out. Still a bear to start. I did get premium fuel at Marathon to see if that helped or not. I dont know what else to do I am at a loss. Anybody have anymore ideas? I am tired of wasting time and money on it.

Steve


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## bbstacker1 (Apr 30, 2014)

Just curious where do you have the throttle set at when you are trying to start it. If you are going by the band on the tiller and setting it at start try opening it up a little more. I have an AD-11, 7.5 hp that if you put it on start you will never get it started when cold, you have to open it right up, after it starts and is warm it will then start easily at the start setting.


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## Pappy (Apr 30, 2014)

If your idle needle is set at 1.5 turns or so that may indicate an air leak. An air leak also will create a hard starting situation as the leak is more detrimental the slower the engine is running. Very evident at cranking. Think of an air leak as kind of a small fixed air jet. Faster the engine is turning the less effective it becomes. 
You can try spraying some gas around the crankcase seams and various fittings on the engine and see if you can make a difference or you can also turn on a torch without lighting it and guide it around while the engine is idling and see what you get. I have always tried to be careful when I do these two checks because of the points ignition but apparently the flywheel rotation keeps the fumes out pretty well. BE careful anyway....................
Another check would be to run compressed air at a very low pressure into the cylinder and crankcase and see if it is leaking. You can do this at the carb flange area and just hold your hand over the air nozzle and intake. The piston on each cylinder being tested has to have the ports closed to pressurize that half of the cylinder and crankcase. Soap and water will show you a leak. 
You can also use soap and water on any entry point into the cylinder and crankcase while the engine is running and it should show you a leak in all but the upper main area or lower main area. Spray bottle will work for this.


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## acwd (May 1, 2014)

I will have to try that some time.

Steve


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## acwd (May 2, 2014)

Ok today I got the motor out and put her in the barrel. After cussing and pulling my arm off finally it started. Sprayed every joint with soap and water only bubble seen was on the exhaust cover and it was a tiny one. So I sprayed every joint with a little carb cleaner. No change in the way it ran. I did notice this today. After the third pull there was gas running out the carb but you cant get it to hit unless you have it choked. So after all that I did testing. I decided to pull the plug wires one at a time. she ran on one cylinder. Bottom one was not as strong as the top. So they are both firing. I did notice the top bearing is a little loose. Could that change the points gap enough to make it act this way? Could the reed valves be sticking or not closing tight enough to make it act this way? So tired of messing with it. Ready to send it on down the road.

Steve


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## acwd (May 10, 2014)

Ok I think I found the problem. I found the gas leak. It was the packing nut on the high speed needle. Tightened them both the packing nuts up. Fixed the gas leak. Helped a little. Next I gapped the plugs wider, helped it a little more. So got to looking at the linkage from the roller to the carb. Seems it got alot of wear. So I adjusted the cam follower plate out. BINGO! Changed it alot. IT will sit all night. Go out in the morning, pull the choke and fires off the first pull! This morning first pull fires off. So I dont know if that was all of it or a combo of different things. But it starts and runs better than it ever has. The roller has some wear on it. Probably needs replaced.

Steve


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## Pappy (May 11, 2014)

If the top bearing is loose it is worth checking. But, at this point you have it running so run it and enjoy it for a while. 
When you feel like it go ahead and split the cyl. and crankcase and do the upper and lower seals, etc.


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## satx78247 (May 11, 2014)

To ALL,

IF you wish to become a "vintage OMC addict" as I am, go buy yourself a copy of: CHEAP OUTBOARDS: THE BEGINNER'S GUIDE TO MAKING AN OLD MOTOR RUN FOREVER by Max E. Wawrzyniak III & take his wise advice to buy a 1955-70 BROOKLURE, EVINRUDE, GALE, JOHNSON, SEA BEE or SEA KING outboard (from a "community bulletin board", AOMCI meet, estate/garage sale or other similar place), then purchase all your parts from SIERRA, which are sold by NAPA Auto Parts stores & other places.
(NO, I don't work for him & I own NO stock in NAPA Stores, either; I'm just one of his many fans. - Fwiw, Amazon.com often has the books at a "discounted price".)

Fwiw, I've always owned at least one or two OMC "BigTwin" outboards in all the years since I was since I was 14YO in 1960. 
(At times, I've had over 25 BigTwins at a time. - Fwiw, my first BigTwin was a 1957 Evinrude 35HP.) 

I always replace the coils, points, spark plugs, condensers, spark plug wires, water-pump impeller & rebuild the carb(s) on ALL of the old OMC OB motors that I acquire, as that saves "aggravation" & "days lost to fishing". - Doing that costs about 80-100 bucks per motor, if you shop carefully & will result in you're having an "as new" ignition system & an OB that pumps water FINE.
(BigTwins are so simple that you need NOT be a "mechanic" to work on one. - A few wrenches,screwdrivers, a hammer, lubricants, soap, etc. AND some ordinary COOMONSENSE will do you FINE to "fix up" most any older OMC motor.)

Note: I have a second cousin who makes his living as a commercial trot-liner and he has/runs the same pair of 1965 OMC 40HP outboards daily, that he bought back then. = BigTwin OBs are so "OVER-engineered" that I've never seen one that was "worn-out in service", though I've seen many that were "abused to death".

just my opinion, satx


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## SumDumGuy (May 11, 2014)

I never knew there was an option to not buying a vintage motor. :shock: :wink: 

While we're plugging....

I have been working on restoring a '53 15hp Evinrude. It was missing quite a few parts. As you can imagine the parts for a 1950's motor are no longer manufactured.
I ran across the site Gano's Outboards and to my surprise Mr Gano has/had everything I needed to get this motor back in shape.
He is also a very good guy to deal with and goes out of his way to get required parts, and the parts are a lot better price than other places (eg Ebay).
So, if your looking for vintage OMC stuff get in touch with Dan.

Dan Gano
https://ganotech.com/


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## SumDumGuy (May 11, 2014)

And everything satx stated about these old motors is true. Easy to work on, and with a little maintenance will probably outlive all of us. 
One strange thing about the older vintage motors though, they are made out of 99+% of this stuff called metal. I guess they used to use that stuff before they started mining plastics.


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## satx78247 (May 11, 2014)

SumDumGuy,

THANK YOU for Mr. Gano's web address. - Didn't know about that one.

I didn't say earlier but my FAVORITE BigTwin is the last couple of years (1962-63) of the 40HP GALE DELUXE ELECTRICS or the same vintage SEA KINGS, that were sold by Montgomery Ward. - The Gales/Sea Kings just seem to be a little BETTER/TOUGHER outboards, even though almost all of their parts are the same as Evinrude & Johnson parts.
Also, they are considered by many "outboard collectors" to be an "off brand" & thus CHEAP to buy/maintain. Gale OB motors were sold by hardware/sporting goods/discount stores. Evinrude & Johnson OB were sold only at franchised marine dealers
(I am well-known by friends to LIKE "cheap". = In point of fact, IF you ask for a part to fit a Gale, you may well be quoted a price that is LESS than the identical part for an Evinrude or Johnson. ======> That's a "deep, dark secret" - Don't tell a soul!!)

Let me give you just one example: in late 2011 I went to a local AOMCI "dry meet" that was held at a local community college parking lot. While "shopping" for another OMC 40 horse "long-foot", I saw a 1963 Evinrude for 200.oo, a 1965 Johnson for 250.oo and a 1962 Gale DE for 175.oo. ALL of the OB were in relatively good condition, had acceptable compression, had the controls/cables and all were electric start 20" shaft.
(The Gale had a good used 6 gallon gas tank. The Evinrude & Johnson did not include tanks.)
Can readers guess which OB that I bought??
(I paid 140.oo for the Gale after some "dickering".)

After replacing all "the usual suspects" at a cost of 86.oo + tax and buying 2 "rattle cans" of spray paint, I have LESS than 250.oo in a GREAT-running/GOOD-looking 40HP OB, that will likely outlast me. - What's NOT to like??

just my OPINIONS, satx


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