# Jack plates and hydrofoils



## huntinfool (Jan 5, 2015)

I took my 1860 tracker to the bay for a Blast and Cast Men's Ministry duck hunt. While on plane I could run in 18" to maybe a foot of water. However I could not get up on plane from a dead stop. 
I do not have a tunnel. 
I have a 90hp Force with a 3 blade prop.
I know that I can add a 4 blade and that should help me with hole shot. 
What I'm curious about is a jack plate and a hydrofoil ( whale tail or what ever name you want to call them).
Will a jack plate work even though I don't have a tunnel? 
Will a hydrofoil help also or in conjunction with a jack plate? I really want to be able to run a bit skinnier than what I'm able to right now. More importantly i want to be able to get up in less water. Any advice appreciated.


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## turbotodd (Jan 5, 2015)

Jack plate might help. Depends on your current setup. Typically you can raise the motor about 1/2 to 3/4" for every inch of setback, which will help in several ways. 

If you went with a 4 blade prop, you get more "stern lift", and a side effect of the 4th blade is more "bite"...meaning you can run the motor higher. So that lets the jackplate raise the motor up a little more before it starts to "blow out" (blow-out is when the motor revs, makes lots of noise, but you're not going anywhere....a.k.a. "ventilation" ).

The hydrofoil will sometimes help get it on plane. If it's all set up right, once it's on plane, the foil is out of the water and it does nothing from that point. With a jack plate, and possibly a 4 blade prop, that thing should run pretty shallow and hold planing speed at a lower RPM, which I personally find handy in flooded timber and also on a shallow river where I don't need to run wide open, yet I can't drop off of plane or the motor drags the bottom.

the thing to look out for is water pressure for the cooling system. Some motors have the water inlets for the water pump higher than others, and can't run real high on the transom. Most of the bass boat guru's put a low water pickup on their motor so that they can run the prop literally half out of the water for less drag and generally speaking more speed. Same can be done for smaller motors but then you get into the "is this little motor worth doing all the work" type deal. Keep in mind that most of the performance bass boat guys are dealing with $50,000+ boats, so putting $2,000 into a few "mods" is pocket change. I did it on a 90hp just do say I did it but the entire boat wasn't worth what I was doing with the motor and jack plate. It was, well...junk. Just well-tuned junk.


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## huntinfool (Jan 6, 2015)

I'm sure I can scrounge up a jack plate somewhere. I can locate a 4 blade prop too. (I might have one) I'm sure I can make a hydrofoil. I've heard of the low water pick ups, but never seen one. I guess I should look into that. I'm not too concerned with cost, as this is my one and only boat, I want it to do, what I want it to do. So if I need to invest, I'm OK with that.

Thanks for the info.
Anyone else?


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## huntinfool (Jan 6, 2015)

I'll try and get a motor down pic tonight, but I'm sure it will be dark.
I want to say when I set it up it might have been a hole too low. ( can't remember) but its been working great, however that would probably help some too.


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## huntinfool (Jan 6, 2015)

Here are a couple of different pics. Some to see the height and some to see the holes.


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## surfman (Jan 7, 2015)

I don’t think a jack plate will “help you get on plane” however it will let you run shallow, and a drawback to the low water pickup is that they have a tendency to suck up a lot of mud since the water pick up is moved to the lower front of the lower unit. A hydro foil might help get you on plane better but really you just need to idle into deeper water before you throttle up, it is a lot better for the grass flat too.

If you decide to go that route, please post back how well it worked, thanks.


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## huntinfool (Jan 7, 2015)

Problem was, we were more than a mile back on this flat.....with no deep water in sight.b


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## huntinfool (Jan 8, 2015)

Anyone else?


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## jtrip (Jan 8, 2015)

I have never tried it and don't know how well it works but read somewhere if your foot is not on the bottom, you could start off slow in a tight circle, bringing your boat up on its side raising the foot off the bottom, gradually increase your speed until you are on plane. Guess that would be for emergencies.


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## huntinfool (Jan 8, 2015)

Yes I meant to try that, but I had other guys in the boat and didn't want to "try" something new.


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## Djknyork (Jan 8, 2015)

I'm thinking a new prop & a jack plate will do you the most good but you'll need a tach and the max weight you're hauling. Call around to a couple prop shops and tell them your issue and see what they say.


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## Bmac (Jan 8, 2015)

Something you might try the next time you have a buddy along is have him sit on the front deck at hole shot. Could be something simple as moving batteries forward. Had a bay boat rigged for batteries either in the rear hatch,or in the center console. Made quite a bit of difference moving them forward. Didn't launch any faster,just flatter. A four blade should also help it jump up flat.

Jackplates never have helped my holeshot,just topend.


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## Jeeper (Jan 8, 2015)

If you can I'd try moving some weight forward first. If that doesn't help go to the prop next..I've heard good and bad about the jackplate. And no idea about a whale tail.


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## Charger25 (Jan 9, 2015)

Jack plates are mostly for top end. A foil will get you plane faster and keep you on plane at slower speeds. A foil is more beneficial if you have power tilt and trim. a 4 blade prop will give you a better hole shot. If it were me i'd try a foil first simply cause it's cheaper than a new prop or jack plate. just my 2 cents


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## huntinfool (Jan 9, 2015)

I do have tilt and trim.
I also have two batteries under the front deck. Plus I have the anchor forward of that ( I know, not much weight) 
I only have the starting battery and motor at the rear.
Storage is forward of the console, and live well/baitwell is in the console. 

At the time I had walked back to the boat while the guys picked up the dekes. I was by myself. Then I finally got them and all the decoys. I had ALL gear on the front deck and had both men up front. That still wasn't enough. 
I think a 4 blade prop and foil may be the easiest. 
I'm only looking at the jack plate to raise the motor and not have it so deep in. That would allow me to keep the skeg off the bottom. And possibly not have the back end of the boat dive down so much while trying to get on plane. I wouldn't really need the jack plate that much after that, although having it to tinker with and see if I can optimize my top end wouldn't hurt my feelings.

If I've got the water pick ups underwater, that's about as high up as I can go with out a low water pick up. Even for a short bit.


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## surfman (Jan 9, 2015)

A jack plate does help in slow speed shallow water because it will raise the motor up off the bottom, the prop will be more behind the transom but you are going slow anyway and you don’t have to tilt the motor at a high angle to keep it off the bottom. Tilting the motor up to clear the bottom only makes the problem worse. It won’t help you get on plane though. Charger25 is right on, IMO.


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## huntinfool (Jan 9, 2015)

Agreed.
But with the motor up, and the boat moving forward with out dragging the bottom, I think I can get moving enough to get on plane.

I think.


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## turbotodd (Jan 13, 2015)

Had a mini jacker on my little Grumman 1542 for a little bit. Yamaha 4 stroke 25 hp. Also ran a 11" 4 blade prop, no foil. No power tilt unless you call kicking the motor in reverse with the tilt unlocked "power tilt".

Reason I did it was because I sometimes run a river that is real wide, but a foot deep, or less, in a lot of places. Was dragging bottom sometimes. Rock/gravel bottom (no sand or mud or logs to speak of). 

First thing I noticed with the jack plate was that I was able to lift the motor about 3 1/2", roughly, from "even" with the bottom. This helped immensely. Found a local guy who had a 4 blade Solas 11" that fit my motor, bough it, and that helped a lot too. Was able to get it out of the hole quicker. If it had power tilt, it'd be a little easier to deal with but it doesn't and I am not going to spend a ton of money on one that does. The 4 blade prop slows it down a hair, like about 1 mph, but I got that back-and then some-with the jack plate. On rougher water when the boat was "riding" the tops of the wake, I could occasionally look back and see about 1/4 of the prop blade tips in a blur, out of the water. It never blew out to speak of. One time when the GF and I were riding around and she was sitting in the very front of the boat (on the nose) and I had the motor tilted up to the first shallow water position and tried to plane it off.

Sold the boat, with the mini-jacker. If my current boat/trailer would fit in the garage with a CMC PT&T, I'd have one, but I don't' even have an inch to spare now much less 5 1/2". 

Ran a foil on my old fiberglass boat. They work if everything's set up correctly. Out of the hole a little faster, little more stable when just barely on plane but that's all I really noticed. Took it off for a while to try it. Put a 17" 4 blade Solas on it and really couldn't tell any difference between that setup and the old Turbo 18" 3 blade SS with the foil. But I did lose a couple MPH. No jack plate. Tried one, in an attempt to drag race a friend's boat (which was bigger and 110 more HP)....3 blade 21" Turbo with a lot of rake and the JP helped a ton. Almost 6 mph improvement. 59.7 mph on a little 16' boat with a 1980's 90hp Mariner. And to end that deal, the reason I got rid of it (well one of the major reasons) was because I was running wide open down river headed to the ramp about 49-50 mph...to beat a barge and passed up a log that was, probably 3 foot diameter maybe 15' long, just barely under the surface, just caught a glimpse of it as I passed by it, no more than about 2 foot from the side of the boat. If I'd have hit that thing...not sure I'd be here to talk about it.


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## huntinfool (Jan 16, 2015)

That's very helpful, thanks.
The hunt I was on, there were several boats there that were my size or smaller. They had JP and were able to get up in skinny water much easier. Mostly because they were able to raise the motor enough to get the skeg out of the mud/sand. They could get the boat moving and slowly increase the power so that they were moving pretty good and then hammer down and jump right up. Most had a foil and a 4 blade prop, but not all. I'm going to try it.


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## huntinfool (Feb 10, 2015)

Is this a low water pick up? I saw this while working in a trailer today. 
View attachment 1


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## Carolina (Feb 15, 2015)

Not much useful advice here from what I've seen. What was the payload in your rig on this cast and blast trip (men+ gear)? When taking about props, the first two questions to ask are always:
1. What RPM were you running?
2. What is the RPM rating for your motor.

Your motor looks to be at about the correct height. You need to get a tiny tach and figure out what RPM you're running before changing anything. Try to simulate a typical load when you're testing this. You want your motor running at or about 200 rpm below your motor's rating. I'd bet you're running way below optimal RPMs right now. Then you can make a prop decision. Yes, a 4 blade will get you out of the hole, but you need to be worried about pitch. Generally, for every inch of pitch you go up or down, you will see a 200 RPM change. Make a good guess what pitch you need then try out a prop. It helps to have friends who have props you can try, but there's a few companies that will let you try out props for 40 bucks or so each if you return them undamaged.

Having said that, I'm willing to bet you just had way too much payload on this trip. Get the boat set up for your typical load, not the once a year cast and blast.


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## huntinfool (Feb 15, 2015)

I have a tach. At what speed are you asking about RPM. While I was trying to get up on plane? Barely 1000. 
When I'm running wide open, the RPM's are close to 5500. As for what the motors RPM are rated at...I don't know. 
Payload on my boat is 7 people or 940lbs.
1500lbs people motor and gear.
That said we had three hunters, 200lbs each. 3 shotguns, few boxes of shells, and some decoys. Maybe another 200lbs. 
Don't think I'm too overloaded. 
I've got a 98 force 90hp. I've asked the local prop repair place and they say I've got the right prop on it, but who really knows. I do seem to have a bit more throttle that I can give the motor and it does not increase the speed any. So maybe I do need a different pitch prop.


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## huntinfool (Feb 15, 2015)

Looking online I see a range of 4500-5500 rpm's wot


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## spcamno (Feb 16, 2015)

I used to have one of those Force outboard on a boat that I had.

I have always found the boat struggle to get on plane as well and did later found out that Force rated their horsepower from the flywheel not from the prop shaft so the hp they claim is kind of misleading.

Also, Force were bought out later by Mercury and they later discontinued the entire Force line due to it will cost them a tremendous amount of money to make those gas sucking Force EPA compliance. 

All the above were told by the marine mechanic where I service my boat however I did added a hydrofoil (I think is Stingray brand) and it did help holeshot quite a bit and its more significant when I'm by myself (can't ask the passengers to move to the bow to help the boat plane) lol.

Have you ever thought about adding floatation pods?

I am thinking since you run shallows a lot and adding beavertail pods might not be a bad idea since those Force 90 is big and heavy.


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## huntinfool (Feb 17, 2015)

spcamno said:


> I used to have one of those Force outboard on a boat that I had.
> 
> I have always found the boat struggle to get on plane as well and did later found out that Force rated their horsepower from the flywheel not from the prop shaft so the hp they claim is kind of misleading.
> 
> ...


I already have float pods on the rear. 

I can't say my motor is a gas guzzler. I ran WOT with 3 guys and a lot of gear for almost 20 miles all day and almost used 1/2 a tank. ( I believe mine is 26 gal.)
That's about 1.5 mpg. I'm a little over 200, and so was one of the other guys. But the last guy might be closer to 300. I'm going to change out my prop, for a stainless one, and I think I have a jack plate located....but trying to get the deal sealed is another story.


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## huntinfool (Feb 17, 2015)




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## spcamno (Feb 19, 2015)

huntinfool said:


> spcamno said:
> 
> 
> > I used to have one of those Force outboard on a boat that I had.
> ...



Sorry I missed the pic with the pods.

I know jackplate will help on top end but not sure the effect on holeshot if you elevated the motor because a buddy has a Ranger Reata (fish and ski) with a hydraulic jackplate he found holeshot is better when he lower the jackplate with the trim in and once its on plane he elevated the motor and trim up for optimal speed (of course monitoring the water pressure).


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## huntinfool (Feb 19, 2015)

Yep. My thoughts are I raise the motor up so the skeg isn't hitting. Then start moving to boat. All the while increasing power, it should eventually gain enough speed to plane. At least it does it now. Motor down or somewhat up. So I can't seeing it not work. It's worked in all the other boats on this hunt to some degree.


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## PsychoXP18CC (Feb 24, 2015)

Holler at Steve's Custom Props up at Lake Fork. Steve is a prop and motor setup guru, and will have some ideas for you to get the most out of your setup. My 1860 Xpress will be going to him in a month or so for a jackplate and 4 blade prop. Not necessarily for shallow water take-off, mine's not a tunnel hull either, but for all around improvements in handling, draft, and lift. I'm not expecting miracles, but like yours, my boat is going to be mine for a long time and I just want everything done to make it as right as it can be. 

I have fished with guides that use the turning method on take-off. These were specially designed fiberglass flats hulls with huge tunnels and large outboards, boats that would run in inches of water. They would would take off in a fairly sharp turn and straighten the boat out to hop it up on top of the water. I've never asked them how much it actually helped, but I've been with more than one guide who does this.


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## evidrine (Mar 9, 2015)

I was unsatisfied with how quickly I was able to get on plane with my boat. (Bass tracker pro16 with a mercury. 40) I ended up trying one of those stingrays fins that don't require you to drill holes to mount it. It basically slips on with a set of set screws to hold it in place. It was the cheapest route to try first , something like $40. Ended up significantly improving how quickly I was able to plane out. The handling in turns was improved also. The only drawback is that I did lose a little top end with it on. I also find that I have to keep the motor trimmed all the way down with the fin on or it will start to raise my bow and causes the boat to hop a little. I'm not sure if this is normal. It did what I wanted it to do though.


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## huntinfool (Jun 13, 2015)

So I got a pic of my motor while on plane. I think I need to come up a hole.


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## Siguz (Jun 27, 2015)

I agree. Looks like it need to go up.


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## huntinfool (Jul 5, 2015)

So I raised it up a hole. I didn't notice a difference, but it was real windy and we were fighting a good chop.
My question is, when I'm looking at the plate, should I just be on plane or wide open?
With it up a hole, on plane, the plate is almost out. The back edge is, but not the front. I probably had the trim set with the nose up die to the chop. 
So do I need to go up another hole? 
I didn't get a pic, because my wife was driving, and she's not real familiar with driving a boat. So I just got a quick glance. 
I'm not going to change anything until I get to run it again.


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## Skiffing (Jul 5, 2015)

WOT. That way you'll know if it ventilates and you're too high.

On mine the difference was less than an inch.


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## Siguz (Jul 5, 2015)

https://www.veradoclub.com/index.php?topic=137.0

In not sure where I found this link but it gives a great over view of desired motor height/positioning.


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## huntinfool (Jul 5, 2015)

Well I'll have to try it again on a not so windy day....maybe tomorrow.


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## Bowhunter1661 (Jul 5, 2015)

I gained 3 mph on my 14' tin with 25 hp Johnson. Went from 28 to 31 MPH wot. I built a jack plate though.


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## huntinfool (Jul 5, 2015)

I don't think mine sits out of the water that much. Hopefully I'll get a chance to check it soon.


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## Skiffing (Jul 5, 2015)

From my understanding the cav plate exposure is a guide. Each engine manufacturer is different as is each hull / as is each specific boat loading - so you've got a lot of potentials..........

So there's no "rule" just a "rule of thumb" and then adjustment to find the best engine height for your situation. On our smaller boats it is certainly more trial and error - because the weight distribution has a more critical effect than on a 10,000 pound 25 foot twin setup.

Some boat / engine combinations run best when the cav plate is like Bowhunter's boat - which looks "picture" perfect. Some run best when submerged a bit in foam - like the Verado videos. Mine runs best when pulled up over an inch. That's where I get top RPM @ WOT, no change in cooling water intake and no ventilation on turns or any chop I CAN run @ WOT.

With the 13 X 14p prop my boat has the "best" cruise speed of 24 - 25 mph ~ 4800 rpm - conditions allowing. WOT is 5400 rpm @ 29 mph. Engine redline is 6000 RPM.

So..... I'm a little out of spec which tells me I'm over-propped - but not by much - and I there is no indication the engine is lugging.

Hope this helps 

And, BTW - how to you like the Elite 5 HDI?


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## Bowhunter1661 (Jul 5, 2015)

I unfortunately didn't have the privilege of just raising my motor up via the bolt holes. I only have clamps with two bolts on bottom. Therefore I was kind of forced to built my JP. You on the other hand can just unbolt and raise. If it were my boat I would go another hole or even two on your setup. The pic is a little poor but it does appear to be low still.


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## huntinfool (Jul 6, 2015)

My pic was not at WOT. So I'll try it again. 
My Elite 5 HDI is great. Live the map and track feature.


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