# propane outboards by Lehr



## ggoldy (Oct 22, 2013)

While shoping for trailers today, a Christmas present from my wife....I do the leg work, I walked into Auer Marine and found a display of 3 propane powered outboards by Lehr. A 2.5, 5, and a 9 or 10 hp. I've spent a few hours looking at reviews and found that people either love them or hate them. Nothing inbetween. Apparently they are Chinese, use the old Yamaha blocks, and most of the problems seem to be what I would call 'no-brainers'. So, I have to ask, does anyone have one? Any thoughts?
The reviews I found were from West Marine and a forum called Sailnet. Much like finding myself in my 60's, I have no idea how I found Sailnet(shruging my shoulders) I have a jonboat, not a sailboat!


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## Jim (Oct 22, 2013)

Interesting.


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## JMichael (Oct 22, 2013)

I remember back in the 70's when the whole propane powered automobile conversions became popular. And then there was the time before that, that they tried running farm equipment on it. They couldn't get get rid of the headaches associated with running on propane then so it will be interesting to see if they can do any better this time around.


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## redbug (Oct 22, 2013)

Plenty of natural gas vehicles on the road now we have a few work trucks that run on it and they do great only proplem is the range they only get around 150 miles per tank.


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## JMichael (Oct 23, 2013)

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=332741#p332741 said:


> redbug » Yesterday, 19:33[/url]"]Plenty of* natural gas* vehicles on the road now we have a few work trucks that run on it and they do great only proplem is the range they only get around 150 miles per tank.



Natural gas or propane??? Never heard of one running on NG.


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## Charger25 (Oct 23, 2013)

I got curious, so went to the Lehr web site. 



Looks kinda funny , but I'm sure you can hook up a 20 lb tank.


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## Jim (Oct 23, 2013)

Not to go too off topic here, But I work a graveyard shift job driving airport shuttle vans and town cars to the airport. They just converted 4 14-passenger vans (Fords) to Propane. They put this massive PropaneTank in the back. The tank has to be 25 feet long and 8-10 foot tall canister. Once final approval happens my company will be allowed to use them.


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## PSG-1 (Oct 23, 2013)

Only disadvantage I see with using propane in vehicles is that it turns a vehicle into even more of a rolling bomb than it already is with a fuel tank full of gas. 

And since about 1/2 of the drivers on the roads are unfit to possess a driver's license (at least here in SC) I see the potential of a lot of people being blown sky-high in collisions.


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## Pappy (Oct 23, 2013)

There are a lot of very knowledgable folks at that manufacturer. Quite a few engineers and field staff are Ex-OMC engineers or field guys. 
I know several of them. Apparently there are larger engines on the drawing board at this point as well.


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## ggoldy (Oct 23, 2013)

Looking at the numbers last night, It seems the cost of operation, fuel-wise, is much more than gasoline. I'm not a smart man, so I may be looking at those numbers all wrong. Two other, larger sized, composite tanks are available, and the common patio grill tank can be used. These may reduce that cost some. If I didn't have to face my wife when I got home, I would have brought a trailer AND that 2.5 back with me LOL It's probably good that I didn't.


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## JMichael (Oct 23, 2013)

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=332757#p332757 said:


> Charger25 » Today, 05:03[/url]"]I got curious, so went to the Lehr web site.
> 
> 
> Looks kinda funny , but I'm sure you can hook up a 20 lb tank.


I know it's cheaper mpg wise to run a car on propane than it is on gasoline but that's when you're filling your tank at the bulk rate cost of around $1.80 - $2.20 per gal of LPG/Propane. If you start figuring up the the mpg cost of running one of those outboards on 1 pound tanks which run around $3.25 and up for just 1 pound, that cost effectiveness is gonna be shot to hell in a hurry. Of course it will come down a little if you can run a 20 lb tank (approx 2.7 gal) which cost around $23. That still leaves the per gallon cost at $8.50 ish which it going to translate to some very expensive mpg.


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## turbotodd (Oct 23, 2013)

Weight at minute.

So they have a 1 lb tank screwed to the motor. So if we put a 20 lb barbecue tank in the boat, the range is quite a bit further.

Just recently filled our 20 lb grill tank. Was about $38 total. And weighed in the neighborhood of 34 lbs. I am not sure what the range would be on a 20 lb bottle. Probably quite a bit considering those chinese motors are small (10 hp and less).

So if I took my 9.9 'Rude and put a gallon of gas in the 3 gallon tank, and ran it about 9 miles wide open (roughly the mileage it takes to run a full gallon out of it), it's STILL cheaper than propane. $3.10 a gallon + 2.5 oz of oil (which is basically a few pennies), so figure $3.50 a gal for premix fuel. And it's only about 6 lbs of fuel + 5 lb for the tank (total 11 lbs). And I can fill it ANYWHERE along the way, or stop at the marina and pay $5.50 a gallon for 50:1 premix, which in that case is still probably cheaper in the long run. 

Interesting concept, but a flop in my opinion, as long as gasoline is "cheap" (which is currently still about $2 too high per gallon). 

Nat Gas is the same way. Trucks have been converting recently here. Lots of them. Up to $10,000 investment to convert one, depending on the model. How long does it take to get a return on that investment? Considering the range on gasoline is about 350 miles and the range on nat gas is about 150. Nat gas is 1.99/gge as of yesterday; gasoline 2.98/gal. Kind of like diesel vs gas. Only fleet vehicles actually see a return; the rest of us are wasting our money.

Then the issues with propane (or LP as we called it for years). LP tends to create acids in the crankcase, and we all know that outboards tend to sit around a lot. Letting an LP engine sit without fresh oil is a no-no. Have seen it with Fork Lifts that have set for long periods of time. I believe engine oils are really the culprit in those cases as most people just use the cheapest or easiest they can find. Some oils don't work well with LP. Also valve seats....LP has almost zero lubrication for the seats, and in cases like these, I really like to see HARD seats (stellite). Lots of headaches with propane for sure. Not worth it in my opinion. Same for nat gas. Nat gas is for heating houses and making electricity, at least until an internal combustion engine is actually DESIGNED to run it, and last 200,000+ miles.

I just can't see LP or nat gas being feasable for small outboards. Larger cruise boats and freighters, perhaps. Especially considering the "clean burn" characteristics and the relative difference between small outboards and a big V8 (or V12, V16, V20, etc).


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## ggoldy (Oct 24, 2013)

Hmmm, two more issues I hadn't considered. I can see more, or different, contaminants in the oil. And I've never thought of lubricating valve SEATS. Valve stems, certainly, but not seats. Yes, I have more research to do. Since the first of these motors that, you know, regular people are using, are just now approaching the end of their warrenty, it's probably wise to wait a couple years and see what issues are apparent as they age. Yeah, I guess that 1000 dollars looks better in my bank account than on the back of my jonboat (sad)
Hey...do you suppose, if I told them my concerns, and asked real nice, they would send me one for a sort of beta test? LOL Yeah, I've always been a dreamer.


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## JMichael (Oct 24, 2013)

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=332855#p332855 said:


> turbotodd » Yesterday, 19:51[/url]"]
> 
> Just recently filled our 20 lb grill tank. Was about $38 total.


Oh crap!!! I haven't taken one of my 20lb tanks in for exchange in a lot of years now but had no idea the cost had gone up that much. That's about $33 worth of markup for the labor to refill a tank. I've got a couple of friends that have 250+ tanks at their homes and have them fitted with hoses and adapters that allow them to refill 20lb and larger tanks. They say it "pays" to have good friends but in this case it "saves" to have good friends. LoL


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## muskiemike12 (Oct 24, 2013)

You guys are getting ripped off big time if you are paying that much for a 20# fill. It runs around $12 in these parts. I wouldn't pay over $15.


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## ggoldy (Oct 24, 2013)

I've sent an email to Lehr asking about those two issues that came up. Different contaminats in the oil and lubricating the valve seats. We'll see if they're listening.


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## redbug (Oct 24, 2013)

I have a 50 lb tank that was just filled last week for $27 dollars you guys are shopping at the wrong place

are you talking exchange?? why?? do a search of your area and you can find a place that will refill your tank much cheaper

Blue rhino last a law suite that had them using a fill valve that was exclusive to them so now all tanks have a standard fill valve


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## JMichael (Oct 25, 2013)

Redbug, the prices I was quoting were exchange prices on 20lb and purchase price on 1lb. As far as I know, no company refills 1lb bottles. The longtime local propane dealer where I live sold out to another company several years back. At that time they were charging $11 to fill a 20lb. The company that bought them out doesn't even refill 20lb tanks so the only option we have here is fill your own (if you have the necessary equipment) or exchange. And as you have already seen, the prices for exchange suck.


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## 10mm (Oct 25, 2013)

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=332897#p332897 said:


> muskiemike12 » 24 Oct 2013, 10:50[/url]"]You guys are getting ripped off big time if you are paying that much for a 20# fill. It runs around $12 in these parts. I wouldn't pay over $15.




What he said. here in florida its about $14 a fill.
And if you have ever been to europe and have seen the cost of gasoline vs LPG, you could see an outboard being a good thing. every gas station in poland has LPG and a lot of places sell LPG and no gas. and I was amazed how many vehicles over there have had the conversion done, probably 4 out of 5 cars or so. and then everything else is diesel, including things you would never expect, like a honda civic or ford focus.


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## ggoldy (Oct 25, 2013)

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=332904#p332904 said:


> ggoldy » 24 Oct 2013, 12:37[/url]"]I've sent an email to Lehr asking about those two issues that came up. Different contaminats in the oil and lubricating the valve seats. We'll see if they're listening.


OK. I've heard back from Lehr. They read their emails...that's encouraging. Now, is it appropriate to bring a manufactures' rep into this disscussion? Jim?


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## JMichael (Oct 26, 2013)

You might need to send Jim a PM with that question. It may be a while before he sees this thread and your question.


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## ggoldy (Oct 26, 2013)

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=333038#p333038 said:


> JMichael » 26 Oct 2013, 10:30[/url]"]You might need to send Jim a PM with that question. It may be a while before he sees this thread and your question.


Yup, I didn't think of that. Thanks


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## ggoldy (Oct 26, 2013)

I've extended an invitation to Lehr customer support to come in and answer our questions. Maybe they'll join the disscusion.


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## DanMC (Oct 27, 2013)

Propane prices vary so much,here in Edmonton at gas stations a 20# can cost you $21 + but at Costco it's only $ 12 Canadian !.....got to love Costco prices !, too bad they don't sell Shell's V power non ethanol premium gas....but then that still kinda ok at $1.25/liter ! (we run it in everything,including lawnmower).


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## Charger25 (Oct 28, 2013)

around here its about 25 bucks for a 20 lb tanks exchange. However, several years ago they changed the fittings and added a check valve inside so a 20 lb tank only holds about 17 lbs and it still costs the same for 20 lb.


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## JMichael (Oct 28, 2013)

Have you ever wondered why the US measures almost all liquids in quarts/gallons, but when it comes to small amounts of propane they use lbs as the measurement? I think if the majority of the public realized and thought about the fact that they are paying over $10 a gallon in some cases, they might revert back to charcoal or at least seek out less expensive means of getting their tanks filled.

Of course if you figured the cost of a gallon based on buying individual 1lb tanks, you could be paying over $27 per gallon. :shock:


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## ggoldy (Nov 13, 2013)

Well, it's obvious we won't get a response here from Lehr. I believe I'll wait a few years for their motors to mature before I consider them again, and I'm sure I'll have another brand hanging on my transom by then. That's a shame, they appeared promising.


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## boarhog (Nov 13, 2013)

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=332752#p332752 said:


> JMichael » 23 Oct 2013, 01:09[/url]"]
> 
> 
> [url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=332741#p332741 said:
> ...




Here in GA. we have many vehicles that run on CNG (compressed natural gas). Buses and fleet trucks and all gas company cars and trucks use it. No smoke or stinky fumes.


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## vapiper (May 9, 2015)

been a minute....any results from those that have tried these out?


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## ggoldy (May 9, 2015)

vapiper said:


> been a minute....any results from those that have tried these out?


I have not...life got in the way 
They still look interesting.


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## muddywaders (May 9, 2015)

Seems a lot of people confusing natural gas with propane.Lehr outboards run on propane.The main advantage of using propane is the fact that it is stored in a sealed container that does not require venting,will not spill and lasts indefinately.Lehr motors are used on dingies for yachts where they are often stowed on deck or on davits some times sideways or upsidedown.The idea of a propane powered outboard appeals to me because it eliminates the risk of contaminated fuel(the #1 cause of motor problems in boats).


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## vapiper (May 9, 2015)

muddywaders said:


> Seems a lot of people confusing natural gas with propane.Lehr outboards run on propane.The main advantage of using propane is the fact that it is stored in a sealed container that does not require venting,will not spill and lasts indefinately.Lehr motors are used on dingies for yachts where they are often stowed on deck or on davits some times sideways or upsidedown.The idea of a propane powered outboard appeals to me because it eliminates the risk of contaminated fuel(the #1 cause of motor problems in boats).



Thats what has me interested......but until there are more units out there to see how they last in reality ...pro's and con's.....im not sure i want to plunk down the money on a 25 hp motor unless its something thats going to hold up

Theory sounds absolutely wonderful but after reading reviews of those that own the smaller units they first put out (2.5-8 hp) does not seem the execution was done properly.....


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## ggoldy (May 9, 2015)

Many of the initial bad reviews sounded like user error, to me. But I agree with you. I want to see a longer track record.


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