# Alcohol wash out



## Boat2fast (Feb 27, 2014)

This alcohol is so much trouble. There is a way to get it out.

The problem is that alcohol draws water vapor into the fuel(hygroscopic). It will pull it right out of the air. Water and alcohol combine and remain in solution...up to a point. After this point has been reached, adding more water causes phase separation. The alcohol/water comes out of solution and sinks to the bottom of the fuel container. If this container is your fuel tank, that puts the A/W right at your fuel pick-up. Guess what your engine gets next? 

So the problem becomes the solution. If you want to remove the 10% alcohol from your 6gal fuel jug, put in 10% water(1/2gal), shake it up real good, and let it set. Hour minimum or until gas is clear, not cloudy at all(overnight is good). All the water/alcohol is now settled to the bottom of your fuel jug where you can siphon it right out. You have forced the phase separation. Prop the jug up on one corner and siphon from the bottom of that corner(low point) into a 1gal clear plastic container. Pull the hose out as soon as the A/W are gone. Any good gas that gets through the siphon hose rises to the top of the A/W container, so you can just pour it back in your fuel jug. Now you have a jug with roughly 5.5gal gas with no alcohol or water in it. You also have a 1gal bottle, mostly full, of water and alcohol with no gas in it. I don't advise drinking it. I haven't figured out anything to do with it yet.

The trouble with this is it's expensive. Time is valuable and this takes that time. Also you are removing 10% of the fuel you bought, making it over 11% more expensive.

Example: 10gal X 3.50/gal=35.00, 35.00/9gal =3.89/gal...not 3.85

I tell people all this and they think I'm nuts.


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## lckstckn2smknbrls (Feb 27, 2014)

You've done this and it really works?
I have an 18 gallon gravity feed tank for my generator so I can drain the water and alcohol out easier than siphoning it.


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## Boat2fast (Feb 27, 2014)

Oh Yeah, I've done this a lot. Still can't figure out what to do with alcohol and water. If you pour it out on the driveway, it stinks up the whole yard until it's gone. 

I wanted to figure how to do it with a 55gal drum...pretty heavy to shake up.


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## flatboat (Feb 28, 2014)

get a water separator filter west marine has them they work good put it somewhere you can access with out spilling . Key to long term fuel storage , don't use alky fuel . burn what you buy . .Used to be ,keep tanks full, . that doesn't work anymore . that alky fuel is some nasty shet in older motors . It starts breaking down the hose insides and is really messes up carbs when that stuff gets in there .we are lucky in south Louisiana we can still get 100%gas , when I head north I have to run a separator . be shure to put a new filter it in freezing weather, learned that the hard way . 
E


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## dkonrai (Mar 1, 2014)

lower crankcase seals dont like the alcohol either.


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## Motv18 (Mar 2, 2014)

Of corse now you have nothing to keep water out of the tank so you pour in a bottle of water remover every once in a while and put back in what you took out. 

You also risk lowering the octane rating 

Just no good fuel these days. Danged if you do danged if you don't.


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## turbotodd (Mar 3, 2014)

Dont' let it sit in the tank for more than a few days. problem solved. 

Also if the tank is vented, it'll pull moisture in. The new "EPA compliant" tanks aren't vented like the old ones were. Not so much of a problem with those.

Evaporation also causes heat loss, which also causes condensation to build. I have done this many times at work testing different fuels. Even fuel with less than 1% ethanol will absorb moisture, and quite a bit of it, in just an hour's time. IMO there's really no cure for the issue. Other than prevention-a.k.a not letting it sit for very long. Winter fuel is worse than summer fuel. It evaporates quicker. EPA doesn't like fuel evaporating into the atmosphere, either, that's why they mandated EPA low-permeation tanks and fuel lines on new motors, starting in either the early part of 2012 or the late part of 2011. Also why fuel tank and line prices skyrocketed. Some fuel tanks are over $100 now, for a 25L tank, and a 12L tank being around $50. Ridiculous, if you ask me; but that "is the price to pay for clean air"......


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## Boat2fast (Mar 7, 2014)

I think that's the price we pay for the _regulation_ of clean air. We're not really seeing any improvement from this tiny source of hydrocarbons.


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## borntofish (Mar 8, 2014)

Sounds like feel good politicians at work rather than common sense. Those two things will NEVER be combined!!


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## jethro (Mar 11, 2014)

Or you could just buy a non-alcohol fuel treatment like Startron that eliminates phase separation. I use it in every engine I own except the truck and that is only because a tank of fuel doesn't last me more than half the week. Boat, snowmobile, motorcycles, 4 wheeler, tractor... they all get the Startron.


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## turbotodd (Mar 12, 2014)

Interesting about the startron. 

Our rep came by today to check our sales. We don't push it much, so sales of startron are down obviously. Why don't we push it? Read on...

Our rep came by 3 months ago and demonstrated how good it is. Took a quart jar about 3/4 full of gasoline and added some water to it. And obviously the water separated to the bottom and stayed there. So he pours in a few drops of startron, shook it up, and like the bottle states it "treats" moisture and ethanol fuels. The moisture was not visible at the bottom after adding startron. Ok so the 2 other guys who were watching this demonstration were loving it and were ready to buy into it. So the rep leaves, but I kept the jar of gasoline, and let it sit about an hour before I could come back to it. Guess what happened to the moisture? Sank right back to the bottom.

Gasoline is a petroleum based product (from OIL). Ethanol is an alcohol. Alcohol and oil don't mix very well. They will, as long as it's stirred up and jostled around in a fuel tank but the problem lies in sitting. Sits a while and guess what happens? Phase separation, among other things. Evaporation also cools the fuel and allows moisture to condense, just compounding the issue. 

Oh and the gas station we use for our fuel at the shop (we go through about 1500 gallons a week roughly) was asked by the shop owner about the ethanol content. Station owner says the supplier doesn't add any Ethanol to the fuel, so his fuels are E-0 (0% ethanol). I grabbed my test strip and pulled a sample. About 3.5%. I told the boss and went in and double checked several samples all about the same content. No response from the station owner, they were closed by time I did the testing. So there is no such thing as 0% ethanol fuel. And...to my knowledge, there never will be.

So you guys and gals see why I just suggest to prevent rather than treat the problem. If ya ain't gonna use it for a week or so, dump it into the truck and refill with fresh. Problem solved. Today's fuels are designed specifically for EFI, meaning high fuel pressure, and a return-style fuel system that is constantly circulating fuel. It don't last long in carburetor bowls that are allowed to sit for any length of time, and things tend to get worse with newer carbureted 4 stroke engines because the orifices in the jets and internal passages are TINY, therfore plug quite easily and quickly. 

But then on the other hand, guys like me who make our living by cleaning dirty carburetors are loving it. But I don't do it for the money, I do it because those who know what they're doing with a carburetor are becoming harder to come by. And it's all I really know how to do in all honesty. I can make money in other ways besides getting my hands soaked with nasty, stinking gasoline.


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## Boat2fast (Mar 12, 2014)

I agree with turbotodd. 

Another option to consider is AVGas for small engines. That stuff can sit for years and not go bad. It's a 110 octane low-lead fuel with legislated purity and chain-of-custody responsibility. I have some of it that is 8-10 years old. It never seems to go bad, and never collects water. I'm down to my last 6gal can. It is just starting to smell not-so-fresh. It is perfect for engines you use once or twice a year.

It's a little different to burn. Chainsaws love the stuff but you find you have to adjust 'em a little.

I use it for my 'winterizing mix', 12:1 with avgas. Run the engine out of gas, pump it up with the wintermix. Run it out again. If the avgas dries out, it leaves zero residue.

You can go to most small airports and swipe your card, fill a can. You cannot throw it in a vehicle with a catalytic converter, it will ruin the converter.

Is isn't a solution. It is a useful tool for battling some problems heaped upon us by a proud, wasteful, and incapable government...a goverment spinning it's wheels in the mud of bankruptcy and party bickering.


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## borntofish (Mar 15, 2014)

I have access to AV-GAS at my local airport. Would I have any issues runnig it in my 1997 Yamaha 25 hp twin carb 2 stroke. "Turbotodd" says that's the sweet one to get. If I should not run AV-GAS, What octane level should I be running in that motor?


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## Clint KY (Mar 15, 2014)

If you are looking for gasoline without ethanol added go to puregas.org and/or search for the puregas app for your smart phone.
They list stations that carry non ethanol gas and you can also list any you find.


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## turbotodd (Mar 16, 2014)

100LL is fine for almost every gas burning engine. Good stuff. Smells a little different. And it withstands time a LOT better than "pump" gas does. Just keep it sealed in a container, not a vented container, out of sunlight and it'll last a long time. Some of the motorcycle manufacturers acutally ship some of their motorcycles with some sort of fuel in them...just a tiny bit in the fuel pump/lines...it smells a little like 100LL and could very well be for all I know. The dealer won't tell me what it is. I thought maybe 115/110 but I don't think so as it's cost prohibitive. 100LL is about the most common avgas you'd find at a small airport, and relatively inexpensive.

Only thing about 100LL is that it DOES have a little bit of lead in it, and therefore not legal for use in motor vehicles. Is it legal for use on the water? I don't know...probably not...but I dont' know the laws concerning leaded fuel on waterways. Not an issue here, but some places more checking is done. I've run Methanol successfully in mine, runs well, uses a LOT of fuel, runs cold (not even remotely warm)...just did it for giggles since the race cars all run on methanol. Meth doesn't get old, but it does suck a LOT of moisture out of the air, attacks aluminum parts, and dries out rubber parts. Not good for motors that get normal maintenance. Meth needs maintenance every time it's put away.


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## Boat2fast (Mar 25, 2014)

I'm not sure about the 'legal' here either.

The reason lead was outlawed for pollution controlled vehicles is that lead destroys catalytic converters. 

If your engine doesn't have a Catalytic Converter, then, you can think about AVGas...which has lead.

100LL is 100octane Low-Lead.

That is my understanding at this point.


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## thill (Mar 25, 2014)

Washing out the alcohol of E10 is possible, but it a generally bad idea.
The reason, is that the alcohol is what increases the octane to 87, 89, etc.

The gas that is left over is a very low-refined fuel, probably somewhere around 84-85 octane, NOT great stuff!

When we drain water from a large boat tank, we add octane booster to the remaining gas, and then dilute it with a full tank of fresh fuel, then tell them to use it up ASAP.

With small tanks, we just replace the fuel with fresh. I then drain the water from the gas, add octane booster to the gas and put in in my pickup truck 5 gals at a time. My truck likes it, but our mini van does NOT!!!

Best solution, is either USE your gas regularly (within 30 days) or go to a marina and buy ethanol-free.

I personally run marina gas in all my small engines, mixed with a little Seafoam, and they run GREAT, no matter how long they have been sitting.

-TH


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## SquiggyFreud (Mar 25, 2014)

thankfully we have more and more ethanol free(or low ethanol) stations popping up in South Louisiana. I use Stabil Marine and Yamaha ring free in my boat and lawn equipment. I also use the ethanol free in my car. My mileage went up on the second tank from 21/24 city/highway to 24/27 city/highway. Best part is the station I use is the same price as the Chevron across the street.


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## JMichael (Mar 25, 2014)

Out of curiosity, what are you guys paying for that 100LL? I know 10% eth 87 oct fuel here is $3.30ish and 100LL is around $5.50. If I want eth free fuel, I have to drive about 15 miles to the nearest station that carries it, and it's running about $3.40.


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## thill (Mar 26, 2014)

$3.29 versus $3.79 around here for ethanol free


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## JMichael (Mar 27, 2014)

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=346461#p346461 said:


> thill » Today, 19:32[/url]"]$3.29 versus $3.79 around here for ethanol free


Are you saying the $3.79 is 87 octane eth free or 100 octane low lead?


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## Buffco (Apr 5, 2014)

Boat2fast said:


> This alcohol is so much trouble. There is a way to get it out.
> 
> The problem is that alcohol draws water vapor into the fuel(hygroscopic). It will pull it right out of the air. Water and alcohol combine and remain in solution...up to a point. After this point has been reached, adding more water causes phase separation. The alcohol/water comes out of solution and sinks to the bottom of the fuel container. If this container is your fuel tank, that puts the A/W right at your fuel pick-up. Guess what your engine gets next?
> 
> ...



You do this, and you just lowered your 87 octane fuel to low 80's octane. I wouldn't run that in my engine.

Sorry for the late post. Just was surprised no one else mentioned this.

Edit: I see one poster above did. My mistake.


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## thill (Feb 26, 2015)

JMichael said:


> [url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=346461#p346461 said:
> 
> 
> > thill » Today, 19:32[/url]"]$3.29 versus $3.79 around here for ethanol free
> ...



Sorry for the late reply...

The E-free 87 octane is about $0.50-$1.00 more per gallon around here. For awhile, it was $0.50 more, but lately, it's $0.80-$1.00 more.

I keep some E-free around, but mostly try to just use up my e-10 within 2-3 weeks, and I use a lot of B-12, Seafoam and Stabil. 

It's the dance we have to dance with the fuel we get around here. A real pain.

-TH


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## JMichael (Feb 28, 2015)

Just found out this winter that I have a source of eth free fuel that's less than 5 miles away. They mainly sell tires, fuel, etc to farmers but they keep the only gasoline pump they have loaded with eth free gas. =D> Now I just gotta hope they sell it for close to the same as the e10 they sell in town.


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## tomme boy (Feb 28, 2015)

The aviation gas is not the same as auto gas. My old ladies brother is a airplane and helicopter pilot and he said it is a different formulation than auto gas. He said you will have to change plugs every 80-100 hours of use. Can't remember why but he said it will build up on the plugs. Different type of lead additive than what leaded gas we used to use. 

We use the 100LL in our race cars but we are not worried about changing the plugs as we run nitrous and the plugs are changed every other run anyway. Sometimes every run.


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## Skiffing (Feb 28, 2015)

tomme boy said:


> The aviation gas is not the same as auto gas. My old ladies brother is a airplane and helicopter pilot and he said it is a different formulation than auto gas. He said you will have to change plugs every 80-100 hours of use. Can't remember why but he said it will build up on the plugs. Different type of lead additive than what leaded gas we used to use.
> 
> We use the 100LL in our race cars but we are not worried about changing the plugs as we run nitrous and the plugs are changed every other run anyway. Sometimes every run.



Kerosene


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## tomme boy (Feb 28, 2015)

Kerosene what? Maybe for a turbine not not for a piston engine


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## KMixson (Feb 28, 2015)

Avgas is not the same as Jet Fuel. Jet Fuel is a high grade kerosene type for turbine powered(Jet) aircraft. It goes by a lot of different monikers, Jet, JetA, Jet A1, JetB, JP-4, JP-5, JP-8 and others. There are subtle differences in the different types. There are even different additives that are used at times. Avgas is for piston driven engines which is a higher octane gasoline with Low Lead hence the LL in 100LL. The nozzles on aircraft fuel trucks are different on the jet trucks from the av-gas trucks to try and keep mis-fuelings from happening but for some reason they still do. Just because a plane has a propeller does not mean is is piston powered either.


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