# Corona Virus



## Rumblejohn (Mar 19, 2020)

This is starting to worry me quite a bit. Living in Florida, you get used to the media hype on hurricanes, but this is a good bit more. Anyone have thoughts to share.

Stay safe and well,

John


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## Scott F (Mar 20, 2020)

If we don’t takes the necessary precautions, all we have to do is look at Italy to show us how severe things could get. If no one spreads the virus, it would all be over in 3 weeks. Uncontrolled spreading will overload the hospitals and people will not be able to get the help they need which could cause their deaths. All we have to do is stay home, away from others, and not panic. I think we need to make some sacrifices for the good of the country.


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## maintenanceguy (Mar 20, 2020)

I don't know if we're over reacting or not. I hope we're not because the economic impact is hurting a lot of people. There are a lot of people out of work because of this and I'm worried that we're doing damage to the economy that will take a long time to recover from.


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## onthewater102 (Mar 20, 2020)

I don't think our leadership has the depth of thought to realize that there will be indirect deaths as a result of the economic harm they've chosen to deliberately cause in their fumbling attempt to try and stop the point-source deaths associated with the virus. 

There is no way to quantify the indirect losses that will occur from lack of resources in other areas - but I have no confidence that they've been considered at all in this debacle.


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## GTS225 (Mar 20, 2020)

onthewater102 said:


> I don't think our leadership has the depth of thought to realize that there will be indirect deaths as a result of the economic harm they've chosen to deliberately cause in their fumbling attempt to try and stop the point-source deaths associated with the virus.
> 
> There is no way to quantify the indirect losses that will occur from lack of resources in other areas - but I have no confidence that they've been considered at all in this debacle.



This may all be true, but I'm not important enough that "they" consult with me on this. I will suggest this, though. It's a fair bet that in the aftermath, there will be numerous studies done in different areas of the response, and how it can be bettered, along with shortages, their cause, and why.

Roger


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## LDUBS (Mar 20, 2020)

Our governor just announced a state-wide lock down. My county has been under a stay-home order since Mar 16. 

Compared to pandemics in the past, I do wonder if the steps taken for Coronavirus are too drastic.But I do understand why they are being done. I do try to limit information to what comes from the CDC or WHO. As expected, there is a lot of nonsense out there that causes unneeded panic. 

I'm in the 'high risk' group but to be honest am not overly worried about catching the virus because I have enough sense to take needed precautions. I am deeply concerned with the number of people who have lost their jobs. And with our statewide 8-week shut-down just announced things just got a lot worse. I hope our governor uses a large part of our state's $20 billion surplus to get people back on their feet.


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## LDUBS (Mar 21, 2020)

Public parks including state parks are open. But many of our reservoirs are shut down. I'm not sure why other than they are owned by water companies and maybe there is a concern with liability issues.


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## Jim (Mar 23, 2020)

How is everyone holding up?

We are all at home and are going outside for short walks and just outside in our yard as the weather permits. Stores around here are stocked at about 75% I would say? 

Meats and fresh veggies are slim pickings, but the local Markets have put in a 2 limit supply on bread and frozen veggies and "essentials" like toilet paper.

I still don't know anyone personally who has it. I myself just got back from Mexico last Wednesday, so far no issues.

Stay safe everyone!


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## overboard (Mar 23, 2020)

I'm also in the "high risk" group if I were to contract coronavirus. We aren't that far from NYC and Philadelphia, it irks me that people are driving 80-100 miles away from those areas looking for toilet paper, seems like they don't give a darn about possibly spreading the virus just as long as they have some toilet paper. BTW, all the stores seem to be out of toilet paper and most other items they are looking for.


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## GTS225 (Mar 23, 2020)

So far, it's hit Iowa rather gently, but there's no massive population centers here, either.
Still, I'm 63, and a former smoker. It's the wife I have to be careful for. She's 71, diabetic, suffers from Atrial Fib, and is being treated for stage 4 breast cancer. Trying hard to hole up, with outside travels about 4 days or more apart. And no, I'm not panic buying anything.

Roger


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## LDUBS (Mar 23, 2020)

GTS225 said:


> So far, it's hit Iowa rather gently, but there's no massive population centers here, either.
> Still, I'm 63, and a former smoker. It's the wife I have to be careful for. She's 71, diabetic, suffers from Atrial Fib, and is being treated for stage 4 breast cancer. Trying hard to hole up, with outside travels about 4 days or more apart. And no, I'm not panic buying anything.
> 
> Roger



Some stores around here are setting up Senior only shopping hours. One grocery store is actually checking IDs. 

I'll add my best wishes for your wife's recovery.


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## jethro (Mar 24, 2020)

Getting more scary as the days go on if you ask me. We just had our first death in NH. Positive test results for the virus are over 100. We are a small state and it's escalating quickly.


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## GTS225 (Mar 24, 2020)

LDUBS said:


> Some stores around here are setting up Senior only shopping hours. One grocery store is actually checking IDs.



Local Dollar Generals, regional stores (HyVee and Fareway), have also started senior hours, from 8-9 am. No I.D. checking yet, but ya never know. 



LDUBS said:


> I'll add my best wishes for your wife's recovery.



Thanks much. So far, it's looking good. Scheduled for a PET scan early April. Let's hope they don't cancel it. It would be nice to know if the med therapy she's been on are having an effect.

Roger


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## JL8Jeff (Mar 24, 2020)

I think it has been here longer than people realize already. I keep hearing stories about people who were sick and got tested for the flu but that wasn't what they had. We have to be concerned about the elderly and people with compromised immune systems, but it does seem to be overdone. I think it's more of the fact that our health systems don't have the capacity for large numbers to get sick at the same time. They closed all outdoor stuff around here. The golf course across the street is closed, the town brush dump is closed, parks are closed. These are places with minimal person to person contact and don't need to be shut down. It seems like we're killing the economy a lot more than we need to.


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## CedarRiverScooter (Mar 24, 2020)

Being a senior citizen, I kinda like the conservative approach. Anyone can pass the bug onto you. I just as soon not be sick & or dead.


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## Crazyboat (Mar 24, 2020)

With several schools of thought on this subject I'll touch on a few.

There's is no cure, so why not leave mother nature to it's course, use common sense when going out and congregating, when people get it, medicate them and when they recover back to work. IMO it would have kept the economy from crashing as much as it has if the media had not hyped this up so much as they have. We really need more responsible reporting on all sides.

The stimulus bill that got squashed because of all the PORK they tried to slip into it. If you're going to go the route of yet another bail out, add restrictions on how corporations can spend the money ie. no bonuses for corp. leaders and no golden parachutes. I'm sure there are other common sense restrictions that can be added but geez, trying to sneak things like tighter restrictions on airlines is stupid and goes against the nature of a "bail out".

A total shut down with the exception of hospitals. It goes against my nature as an American to tell me I can't walk the streets, etc. we have rights and those rights allow me to be stupid if that's what the govt. wants to deem me. But a complete shut down for 2 weeks will complete the incubation period, those sick will get treatment and those that are well can get back to work after 2 weeks. Would 2 weeks stuck indoors be hard, for people with kids, sure as shit, adults should be able to do 2 weeks standing on their heads.

What's your idea of what's best.


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## onthewater102 (Mar 24, 2020)

You can't stimulate an economy when everyone's locked inside. They're just buying relief from panic in a short-term...or not...seeing as they can't help themselves but try to stuff a spending bill full of pork. 

It just shows how rotten our political system is when people from both parties can't help but stuff their fat hands in the cookie jar when there's a true national emergency unfolding. Vote them all out is all I can say - I have no political affiliation, this system of self-promoting greed is starting to rack up a very real body count.

Such a depressing display of ignorance and greed unfolding every day. How do we call ourselves "civilized" anymore? It's a bad joke.


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## gwar822 (Mar 24, 2020)

im in levy county near marion county. im worried for my parents. people are still going all over the place in public and shit.. if my parents die or if i die ima be pissed.. ima come back from the dead go to china and take out the CCP leaders in retaliation


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## LDUBS (Mar 24, 2020)

onthewater102 said:


> You can't stimulate an economy when everyone's locked inside. They're just buying relief from panic in a short-term...or not...seeing as they can't help themselves but try to stuff a spending bill full of pork.
> 
> It just shows how rotten our political system is when people from both parties can't help but stuff their fat hands in the cookie jar when there's a true national emergency unfolding. Vote them all out is all I can say - I have no political affiliation, this system of self-promoting greed is starting to rack up a very real body count.
> 
> Such a depressing display of ignorance and greed unfolding every day. How do we call ourselves "civilized" anymore? It's a bad joke.



I'm not an epidemiologist and have kind of decided to confirm everything I hear with what is said by CDC or WHO. Anyway, it is a shame when decisions that should be based on science are being influenced by politics. 

And how is it these elected officials had millions to sell off before the market dived. I hope this comes around to bite those who violated the insider trading laws. But we kind of know how that goes. 

Anyway, Mrs Ldubs and I are on pensions and are OK. I am very concerned for all of the folks who have lost their jobs. I hope any $$ relief goes to the folks who really need it to pay rent.


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## gnappi (Mar 25, 2020)

Doing great here. Florida seems to be rather steady. I only go out for necessities, but the clowns that bought up all of the toilet paper, hand towels, disinfectant, chicken, lesser cuts of meat, water and others too silly to mention sent us a message. 

When things get straightened out again, in the future shop ahead. 

Keep supplies on hand so you do not have to deal with the panicking hoarding idiots. I have not needed any of the above items as I keep my shelves reasonably well stocked, lessons learned for the rest of us.


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## CedarRiverScooter (Mar 25, 2020)

The 2 trillion will have to be paid back some time, hopefully far in the future. The kids partying on the beach may be the ones who pay.


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## the hammer (Mar 26, 2020)

You can’t run around like this all the time!


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## Vader809 (Mar 26, 2020)

I am seeing the first responders, and medical falling victim to this. When, or if we run short on these people it will be a disaster.


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## LDUBS (Mar 27, 2020)

Read that Washington state has closed down all recreational fishing as part of the stay home order.


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## LDUBS (Mar 27, 2020)

Vader809 said:


> I am seeing the first responders, and medical falling victim to this. When, or if we run short on these people it will be a disaster.



My sister-in-law was a managing nurse before she retired about 5 years ago. The hospital asked if should would come back. I'll bet this is happening a lot.


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## GTS225 (Mar 27, 2020)

I'm hearing that the military is asking retired members to voluntarily come back in in support of the efforts. The primary needs are the medical fields.

Roger


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## LDUBS (Mar 27, 2020)

This has been around for a while, but I thought I would share the link in case anyone was interested in bookmarking it. It provides up to date info on the CV status. You can drill down to country/state/county level data. 

This is via John Hopkins and uses bonafide data from CDC. So it is about as reliable as anything out there. 


https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6


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## UP BOATER (Apr 9, 2020)

This Covid 19 is turning out way more serious than most people guessed. It seems like people don’t believe the mainstream Media anymore which may have slowed the reaction to it down a bit.


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## LDUBS (Apr 10, 2020)

It is incredible to go back and look at the timeline. Even in late January CDC was still saying low risk to America. Then BOOM -- incredibly rapid spread. Not pointing fingers or exercising perfect hindsight (too much of that already). Just saying the spread was apparently faster than anyone imagined. 

Everyone stay safe.


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## KMixson (Apr 11, 2020)

I am doing OK at the moment. We are not being forced to quarantine right now except for people with symptoms and visitors coming in. I work at a fuel farm at the airport and we have to have someone there 24-7-365 in case something catastrophic happens. If they force stay at home I will have to go to work and stay/live there until it is over same as I have to do when hurricanes come along. I hope it doesn't come to that. I do not have to hang around groups of people on an average day which is good in a way. I usually only see around 3-5 people on a typical day. I fear this is going to hurt the economy for years to come. The airlines are going to be hurting for a while. There are probably a lot of industries that are going to be hurting for a while. Well, Stay safe and may we come out of this stronger than ever.


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## Captain Ahab (Apr 13, 2020)

Everyone please stay safe and away from each other. Highly contagious is an understatement. Here in the northeast it looks grim


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## JL8Jeff (Apr 14, 2020)

I have this bad feeling that we're not going to learn a lot from this situation. China gave us bogus information and even Italy was categorizing deaths as Covid19 related when quite a few of them were people who died for other reasons but they tested positive. NY state is doing the same thing and that has over inflated the numbers. The testing is not accurate and seems to depend on who took the swab and how well they did it. NJ has a 14 day backup in test results, geez, if you already had it for how many days before getting tested, 14 days later is close to 3 weeks so it's a little late to try and treat it. It looks like a lot of people have already had it and were never tested or didn't have any symptoms. If a vaccine is going to take another 12-18 months (and then 6 weeks to really work once you've gotten the vaccine) then we're definitely going to have another surge at some point. One thing you don't hear too many people talking about is trying to boost your immune system. All the tv and media talk is doom and gloom with exaggerated predictions from terrible models (much like weather). We're not going to have 325 million test kits available any time soon or that many vaccine doses, so the best bet is to boost your immune system as much as possible and watch your contact with other people. Sheltering in place is not going to stop this with it in pretty much every country already. All the statistics are tainted already so it will be tough to draw good conclusions. One thing I think we have learned is that we need to bring a lot of manufacturing and drug production back in house so we don't have to rely on other countries. Stay safe and just be smart. Hopefully this will make more people aware of basic hygiene as well.


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## Scott F (Apr 14, 2020)

For the Monty Python fans.


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## gnappi (Apr 18, 2020)

Well, I spoke too soon... The end of March I went to the hospital with shortness of breath, dry cough, and sore throat... NO fever or other symptoms. I was tested for everything that could possibly manifest itself with my symptoms (heart, lungs, bacterial) and released after two days. My VERY minor symptoms lasted all of two to three days. 

After a week, my COVID test came back positive. 

At my age (68) I'm in very good health, but can I be in better shape than the much younger seemingly healthy first responders who have been dying of it? Also WHY my symptoms were so ridiculously minor and many had severe symptoms at the onset.

Can there be TWO strains or forms off the virus one mild and the other aggressive? I'm thinking it must be as not one person I was in close contact with before and after the onset of symptoms became sick.

IMO, there needs to be a LOT of study on this virus going forward, and I mean not just on the very ill but those who like me were affected with such minor symptoms. Researchers REALLY need to look at the lifestyle of patients like me (and those who were totally asymptomatic) to discover why! Could it be traced to regular use of vitamins, certain foods, meds, micro climate?


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## Jake2250 (Apr 18, 2020)

The beginning of February my wife came down with the "Flue", Sudden onset, she went to a church group function early one morning and was home within the hour complaining of sever light headiness and a fever.
I took her temp,,sure enough she was at 101 degrees.
she was feeling really bad for about six days,lost her voice couldn't swallow or speak,,we chalked it up to the flue, made her chicken broth and crackers. Luckily we had Tylenol. She only had one day of difficulty breathing (has asthma), So I had to set up her breathing treatments three times that day.
We had no idea of the Virus at this point. 
After seven days she started feeling better and started eating solid foods. Finally after two weeks she felt better.
With in two weeks of her being sick I had two days of feeling like I was coming down with something bad,Throat was feeling like I was getting Strep throat, had a minor fever and was very sleepy and weak, I stayed with the Tylenol and gargled with salt water. 
Two days was it! I bounced back and symptoms were gone completely the third morning! Chalked it up to a two day bug! 
By the end of February we were hearing about the virus.
Reached out to our medical facility and told them we believe we had Corona Virus and asked if they would like to test us for anti bodies.
Nope, thanks for letting us know,,stay away! 
We did quarantine from family members that didn't have any symptoms but let ones that had the same thing come by to visit. 
We are 90% confident we had the virus but may not ever know for sure!


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## JL8Jeff (Apr 18, 2020)

gnappi said:


> Well, I spoke too soon... The end of March I went to the hospital with shortness of breath, dry cough, and sore throat... NO fever or other symptoms. I was tested for everything that could possibly manifest itself with my symptoms (heart, lungs, bacterial) and released after two days. My VERY minor symptoms lasted all of two to three days.
> 
> After a week, my COVID test came back positive.
> 
> ...



Did they treat you with anything? With the amount of people who probably had it and recovered or barely showed symptoms, I think it's going to be really hard for us to get good metrics from it. It's really strange the NY and NJ have so many deaths compared to CA and other states. Even stranger are the numbers from other countries like India that don't seem to be hit as hard but have the largest population. Either NY and NJ are counting the deaths wrong (which I think is highly possible and they are counting way more than they should because people looked like they had the symptoms) or there is something wrong with the people or air conditions in the NY/NJ area. I think they say 1/3 of NJ deaths are older people in nursing homes or special care facilities but why aren't older people in FL being hit as hard? Something just doesn't seem right with the information we're getting. I can understand the outbreak in NY/NJ since a lot of people in NJ work in NYC and everyone is right on top of each other in trains, buses, subways, the streets and it spread really easily in that situation. But that would make you think India would be worse with the people sitting on the roof of the trains and hanging off the sides because it's so crowded.

Regardless, glad to hear you're feeling better. I'm pretty active and walk each day, get in a bike ride each week, do pushup/situps a couple times a week and get in some light weightlifting each week. So I think I might be one of those people that might not notice if I have it. My nose runs all winter long and now with allergy season starting, it could be tough to tell if something is really hitting me.


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## LDUBS (Apr 18, 2020)

JL8Jeff said:


> Did they treat you with anything? With the amount of people who probably had it and recovered or barely showed symptoms, I think it's going to be really hard for us to get good metrics from it. It's really strange the NY and NJ have so many deaths compared to CA and other states. Even stranger are the numbers from other countries like India that don't seem to be hit as hard but have the largest population. Either NY and NJ are counting the deaths wrong (which I think is highly possible and they are counting way more than they should because people looked like they had the symptoms) or there is something wrong with the people or air conditions in the NY/NJ area. I think they say 1/3 of NJ deaths are older people in nursing homes or special care facilities but why aren't older people in FL being hit as hard? Something just doesn't seem right with the information we're getting. I can understand the outbreak in NY/NJ since a lot of people in NJ work in NYC and everyone is right on top of each other in trains, buses, subways, the streets and it spread really easily in that situation. But that would make you think India would be worse with the people sitting on the roof of the trains and hanging off the sides because it's so crowded.
> 
> Regardless, glad to hear you're feeling better. I'm pretty active and walk each day, get in a bike ride each week, do pushup/situps a couple times a week and get in some light weightlifting each week. So I think I might be one of those people that might not notice if I have it. My nose runs all winter long and now with allergy season starting, it could be tough to tell if something is really hitting me.




I heard Doc Fauci talk about why NY got out of hand. Short version is focus was on controlling spread from Asia, which made sense. The virus came to NY & NJ via travel from Europe and got a foothold. I guess it kind of snuck in the back door while everyone was looking the other way. 

I also read that NY's governor asked that deaths from heart attacks and other things that could be CV related be counted as CV. Personally, I do not believe that for a minute. Though I could see how anything suspected of could be counted as CV. 

The good news is it does not sound like a runny nose is typical of CV. This chart is from our County's CV website. It compares symptoms for Flu, Common Cold, and cover-19. 

Stay well.


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## gnappi (Apr 18, 2020)

They "generally" don't treat a flu like virus, they manage symptoms like fever, headache, muscle aches with OTC remedies, and unless COVID symptoms (necessitating a respirator) are severe they probably do the same. Sure they've tried vitamin C as well as some other drugs for the most ill with some success but no really hard evidence to backup a really substantive claim to anything resembling a cure.

Gov. Cuomo's brother was doing nothing for the symptoms as I heard him say the fever was the body's natural way of combating it, dunno there. 

So in the hospital they essentially did nothing for me other than isolation till my symptoms passed... all of two days.


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## JL8Jeff (Apr 19, 2020)

My nose runs all winter long (it might be fall, winter and spring) and I have muscle aches (back is the worst but I've had other muscle pulls that haunt me) all the time year round. So I know those have nothing to do with the virus. And an odd coincidence this past winter, there were coupons in the paper for Ester-C 24 hour immune support and they went on sale at my local grocery store. So I bought them and took them all winter. Once they ran out, I grabbed some normal vitamin C as a back up. I don't normally take any vitamins so it could just be lucky timing.

But one thing you can probably say about people from NY/NJ is that most of them are not in the best shape/health (and that extends down to Philly as well) so I can see why this hit the area so hard. And seeing the number of deaths from nursing homes, I never realized there were that many in NJ. Some of them are almost being emptied out by this. When the second round of this comes through in the fall/winter, it probably won't be as bad since the most vulnerable are no longer around. Hopefully we have a better understanding of how to treat and deal with it at that point.


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## lckstckn2smknbrls (Apr 19, 2020)

NY and the surrounding area relies heavily on public transportation.


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## gnappi (Apr 19, 2020)

I received a letter from the county health department asking STRONGLY that I call them and called them today, more than surprised that their regular 9-5 office hours were extended 

I spoke at length to a gal about my symptoms and she asked (very nicely) if I would be willing to receive a call during the week and answer a list of questions regarding my symptoms, recovery, AND most importantly a LOT about my lifestyle. 

They seem VERY interested in any drugs (OTC, script, and otherwise) foods, supplements, exercise habits, health background, family history immunizations etc.

I've ALWAYS said they spend too much research dollars on sick people and not enough on those who do NOT get sick. It seems as if on COVID they are changing tactics to learn more about those who were asymptomatic and had barely a bump with the virus symptoms like me. Lots of data for the supercomputers to crunch. Maybe a ray of hope?


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## lckstckn2smknbrls (Apr 23, 2020)

The Governor of Illinois has extended the stay at home order until May 30th


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## Crazyboat (Apr 24, 2020)

We all have an opinion on this, here's mine.

Sweden didn't lock down their country, they advised people on what actions they thought was best and allowed the people to follow/not follow the guidelines.

Yes more people died in Sweden then surrounding countries but Sweden also has 2 million more people then the State of NJ and only half the deaths.

My thinking is very libertarian and along Constitutional lines. We have rights, some of those rights allow us to make poor choices in life, like smoking or drinking, even to excess.

We have in writing the freedom to pursue happiness and to congregate. We have freedom to practice our religion of choice, there is no provision in the Constitution or Bill of Rights that says, "All this stuff except when there's an oh shit moment, then it all goes out the window."

If you think it's dangerous to go out, stay home, want more freedom, go out. Your life, your calculated risk, don't come crying to me if you come down with a virus.

Some people are saying you should have to sign a wavier if you want to go out and about giving up your healthcare. How about those (Like me) that are forced to work, do I get combat pay, or a bonus if I die from this virus? Of course I don't, you can't have it both ways.

For those more liberal among us, "my body my choice" is a battle cry for abortion rights, well why doesn't the same apply to this situation? 
The other liberal cry, "Healthcare for all", well all of a sudden they want to take that demand off the table for some. Hypocrite much?

The fact is, we have rights, I personally don't think it very smart to go to church right now, but if that's your desire, do so. 

Why is Walmart allowed to sell socks and shoes but a mom and pop store can't, why can WalMart sell a bike but a bike shop can't? Why can't I go to my barber and get a haircut, he can make you stand outside like Walmart and allow only one person in at a time, no?

This is another reset, another redistribution of wealth by the elite, I hope you had the foresight to anticipate the fallout, hold on tight folks, it's going to be a bumpy ride.


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## CedarRiverScooter (Apr 24, 2020)

Meat packing plants are shutting down. If you think TP hoarding was bad . . .


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## KMixson (Apr 25, 2020)

CedarRiverScooter said:


> Meat packing plants are shutting down. If you think TP hoarding was bad . . .




Are you saying the squirrels in my backyard are not safe anymore? :LOL2:


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## CedarRiverScooter (Apr 25, 2020)

I think my wife would take me out before I got a shot off.

[/url/https://cvws.icloud-content.com/B/AQefpgK_JlBlYx0fw9gVSf0KZvbHASz-tWmGIRWhmddj85N9gNIHbpWr/IMG_1035.MOV?o=At47cwqOivubISzNKWXa-sKu-vbVVFZDc4M2SbAPyGJt&v=1&x=3&a=CAogs8pOUcRXZFcGtcaGiYBAZ6RBTmdf3EpUp26KIRBHC5YSJxCllK3nmS4YpaSou6MuIgEAKggByAD_amF6o1IECmb2x1oEB26Vqw&e=1590067597&k=XEZ1oz962tq8WtJP-BXLRg&fl=&r=8AF20370-B774-477F-97EE-0D57C75930E9-1&ckc=com.apple.largeattachment&ckz=31C125D3-D6D6-4BCE-9264-D41ED50BC17F&p=20&s=jm-HJxNp4lZ8fr39MnMmegTG6Xc&teh=]squirrels[/url]


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## LDUBS (Apr 26, 2020)

I was taking down an old apple tree a couple of weeks ago when I noticed a bird's nest in a hollowed out area like that on in the squirrel video. I was about half way done taking the tree down. Now I'm waiting for them to fly the nest so I can finish. Delay isn't a real problem because the lemon tree replacement we ordered is on hold too.


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## LDUBS (Jun 3, 2020)

My county has just announced, effective today, businesses can start to open and folks can return to work in retail, offices, pet care, personal grooming, child care, car washes, and etc. There are still restrictions on restaurants, churches, and some other activities like outside dining, which I don't really understand. Those are expected to relax shortly. Social gatherings are also now OK. I think of up to 10 people. And, gathering for protests of up to 100 people are deemed OK. (Kind of a coincidence how the timing for lifting distancing rules for protest gatherings worked out.) 

One of our little town's council members says he is going to challenge the county's order in an attempt to get our all of our community's businesses back open. We are a small town of about 11,000 and would never survive a court challenge against county resources. But I think the council will push as hard as they can. 

Anyway, our county's numbers look pretty good. I don't think a spike can be avoided but hope it will be small and short-lived. 

Everyone take care.


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## JL8Jeff (Jun 3, 2020)

Somehow, you guys jumped ahead of us in NJ. Our governor has no clue what he's doing and he's destroying the small businesses. Somehow, it's ok to go to Home Depot and shop and hand a cashier money, but it's not ok in the mom and pop stores. [-X I just gave myself another haircut since our salons and barbershops aren't allowed to open yet. #-o I think the explosion of cases in the NY/NJ area was really caused by the use of mass transit and that's why we're not seeing the same thing happen in other areas. Stay safe but let's get back to normal.


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## LDUBS (Jun 3, 2020)

We have been having the same issues with understanding some of the reasoning about why one place can be open and another can't. 

Anyway, I kind of understand and agree that NJ got hit hard because it is so connected to NYC. In California half the cases & deaths are in Los Angeles County. My county of 1.15 million has had 1500 cases and 39 deaths since this started. 

I hope your area makes progress and sure agree the sooner we work our way out of this mess the better.


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## handyandy (Jul 1, 2020)

return to work wth? I never got to quit working, call me selfish the unemployment benefits piss me off. People that have been working the whole time don't get crap. People who weren't working lot of them are getting paid more on unemployment they what they were regularly working. How about the next stimulus give people who have been working the whole time something more.


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## DriftinMT09 (Jul 2, 2020)

handyandy said:


> return to work wth? I never got to quit working, call me selfish the unemployment benefits piss me off. People that have been working the whole time don't get crap. People who weren't working lot of them are getting paid more on unemployment they what they were regularly working. How about the next stimulus give people who have been working the whole time something more.



Even better, how about the next stimulus, if there is one, not be just an pre-payment of a tax return (if one is due for the 2020 tax season). I don't see how they figure it was a stimulus, when it's money that will reduce a tax refund for those that overpay, but not be taxable for those who will already owe in. If the federal government is okay with the money not being paid back for those whom already owe money, why should it reduce any incoming refund payments to those that have already overpaid and allowed the government to use the taxed money to earn interest. I understand that people can just change their withholding to adjust, to make sure they would maybe only owe a bare minimum, so the "stimulus" check would not count against them so much, but what a pain.


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## LDUBS (Jul 9, 2020)

handyandy said:


> return to work wth? I never got to quit working, call me selfish the unemployment benefits piss me off. People that have been working the whole time don't get crap. People who weren't working lot of them are getting paid more on unemployment they what they were regularly working. How about the next stimulus give people who have been working the whole time something more.



I hear your frustration my friend. I still think I would rather have a job. Those unemployment bene's are going to run out and all of those people are going to be fighting for a limited number of decent jobs. Future security is worth a lot, IMO. Take care.


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## Crazyboat (Jul 13, 2020)

I'm just back from a family vacation I Md. it was so nice to be able to sit inside and dine like humans.


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## handyandy (Jul 15, 2020)

LDUBS said:


> handyandy said:
> 
> 
> > return to work wth? I never got to quit working, call me selfish the unemployment benefits piss me off. People that have been working the whole time don't get crap. People who weren't working lot of them are getting paid more on unemployment they what they were regularly working. How about the next stimulus give people who have been working the whole time something more.
> ...



I agree I'm glad to have my job, wasn't gripping about having a job. My gripe is that by not working many people have been making more. I know that isn't the case for everyone on unemployment but it is for many.


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## LDUBS (Jul 17, 2020)

handyandy said:


> LDUBS said:
> 
> 
> > handyandy said:
> ...




I know you weren't. It is really sad that folks take advantage during hard times and this is likely to get a heck of a lot worse before it is over. I recently read that United Airlines will lay off up to 32,000 workers when the CARES Act deadline hits. I suspect there are a lot of companies in that same boat. 

Anyway, one of my gripes are those getting paid off the books so they can also collect UE. Also it irritates the heck out of me that big, wealthy institutions take stimulus monies they don't need just because they can. My son-in-law runs his own tech business. He gave the stimulus $ back because he didn't need it and knew others did.

And, I don't even want to think about how we are going to pay that $2.2 trillion back. Forum rules prevent me from expressing any more thoughts on this subject. haha


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## Rumblejohn (Jul 19, 2020)

Took the wife in for testing Friday. She lost her sense of smell, had mild flu like symptoms. We had no sooner returned home when my temp went up to 101.9, bad cough, sore throat, and splitting headache. We should have her test results back Monday or Tuesday. If she tests positive, I'm sure I would have it too. (we share everything)
I feel much better today, cough has let up. Hopefully it is just something seasonal.
And yes we have worn our masks when going out, and not too much of that.

Stay safe and well,

John


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## CedarRiverScooter (Jul 19, 2020)

LDUBS said:


> And, I don't even want to think about how we are going to pay that $2.2 trillion back.



No worries on that, our grandkids will be the ones stuck with the bill.


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## RaisedByWolves (Jul 19, 2020)

Folks, Ive completely changed my mind about this thing and while I will comply with the mask issue and all, I now believe there is no way of stopping this and it is not as bad as is or has been reported.

A study I found on the effectiveness of masks and my observations.

https://www.rcreader.com/commentary/masks-dont-work-covid-a-review-of-science-relevant-to-covide-19-social-policy


My observations.

I walk around at work all day in a population of 1200 workers, 700 of which are on my shift. Most of my co workers are black and 70% of those are from third world countries, predominantly Haiti and Liberia. These are for the most part all good hard working people who appreciate their chance at becoming Americans than many natural Americans do. They want nothing to do with the "Thug life" or Gangster BS we see in the inner cities where unfortunately they are first forced to live, good people overall and hard workers.


However, having said that, their hygiene in some areas is less than desirable. Eating foods with their hands without washing before or after is common and dont even get me started on their bathroom habits. :shock: Eating a sandwich while taking a dump and talking on the phone should give you an idea without going into too much detail of how much worse things I have witnessed, bit I digress.


Now, what I have found out, and by my estimate the numbers are low, is that people touch their face roughly 30-45 times an hour. Add in an uncomfortable mask that wont stay in place and the need to remove it and put it back on several times an hour and who knows what the numbers are.

Each time you touch your mask you contaminate it. Think about that. You contaminate the very thing they tell you is protecting you hundreds of times a day.

Taking all that into consideration, in our plant we should be literally dropping like flies, yet its not happening.

Out of 1200 people, with a roughly 50-60 person turnover a month we have had only 35 cases and have only shut down for "Sanitizing" one day total in four months.


Based on my observations in less than ideal conditions, for me things arent adding up.

I should have contracted this by now or be dead as Im 52 and have several so called comorbidity.

Make of this what you will, but for me every day I dont catch thin my feelings slide evermore towards this being largely overblown.

This from someone who went out in mid Jan and bought several hundreds of dollars worth of canned goods and stores ready to hunker down inside for a few months.


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## LDUBS (Jul 19, 2020)

CedarRiverScooter said:


> LDUBS said:
> 
> 
> > And, I don't even want to think about how we are going to pay that $2.2 trillion back.
> ...




I'm kinda hoping it will be the young knuckleheads that ignored the social distancing rules and refused to wear masks. Poetic justice. Lol


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## LDUBS (Jul 19, 2020)

RaisedByWolves said:


> Folks, Ive completely changed my mind about this thing and while I will comply with the mask issue and all, I now believe there is no way of stopping this and it is not as bad as is or has been reported.
> 
> A study I found on the effectiveness of masks and my observations.
> 
> ...



The study you reference in your link has pretty much been debunked. They guy cherrypicked a bunch of older studies in a misleading and unscientific way to generate some sensationalism. That is a huge problem with the internet. It is easy to find plenty of proof for whatever is it we want to believe.

Unless your shop is testing 100% of staff routinely, then you really don't know how many are walking around with CV-19. Not everyone shows symptoms. Nor do you know how many others outside of your shop have been infected by those 35 confirmed cases as well as the asymptomatic ones. Even with a low rate of spread, say an R-number of 1.1 (one infected person will infect 1.1 others on average), one positive case will cause 25 others to be infected within 2 months. That means without any precautions, the 35 known positives will have caused more than 800 infections within a couple of months. And, CV-19 is thought to have an infection rate much higher than this example. Sadly if some of those 800 happen to be at-risk (elderly, etc) then risk of death is significant. For CV-19, I read of R-numbers of anywhere from 2 to 6. By taking prevention steps, like distancing and/or wearing masks, we can reduce the rate of spread hopefully to a value of less than 1.0. 


I tend to ignore politicians, news talk shows, and the celebrity experts (including those that pop up out of nowhere). I try to pay attention to our Public Health officials. I admit they are not perfect but those who follow their advice seem to do better. 

So, I would encourage everyone to pull together to protect our at-risk citizens and help manage this pandemic by social distancing and where that can't happen, wear a mask. It is so simple and easy I don't understand why there is even a debate.


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## JL8Jeff (Jul 19, 2020)

I thought I heard that CDC tests or studies from 2015 showed that cloth masks did very poorly in stopping the transmission of flu particles. The N95 masks worked well. but since the Covid19 particles are even smaller than the flu, the cloth masks don't really do much in that respect. Add to that issues with moisture retention and too many layers could limit oxygen intake and they might do more harm than good. But like you said, the internet has so much twisted information nowadays, you can't really believe anything. It's obviously still spreading so whether it's through particles in the air or on surfaces that people touch, we don't seem to have a real good answer to that. I personally think that the spread that happened in NY and NJ was from people using mass transit. Someone from my town got it months ago and he takes the train to NY for work. I think one of the interesting concepts is that every virus has a certain percentage of infection before it burns itself out. A rough example is if you say that 50% of the people in NY/NJ have already been exposed/infected. If 25% of them were asymptomatic then that would mean the next round wouldn't be worse than the first round. So the other 50% of the people left who could get it, 25% are asymptomatic and it won't bother them. NY/NJ have overinflated death rates due to the nursing home debacle so the next round should have a lower death rate. I'm hoping our area has been through the worst at this point but who knows. IMO, the mask thing should be up to the business that you are visiting. And any smart business owner would require masks to protect their patrons and workers. But even with the masks, I see so many workers fiddling with them constantly so anything on the mask is now on their hands/gloves and can easily be transmitted to patrons. I don't think we have any good answers or valid studies to justify either position. I'm not a germaphobe but I have always made sure to wash my hands often to protect myself and others. I haven't had a cold in almost 3 years so I think the washing thing really works.


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## CedarRiverScooter (Jul 19, 2020)

I get a kick when I see peeps wearing a mask on their chin. What's the point?


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## RaisedByWolves (Jul 20, 2020)

LDUBS said:


> RaisedByWolves said:
> 
> 
> > Folks, Ive completely changed my mind about this thing and while I will comply with the mask issue and all, I now believe there is no way of stopping this and it is not as bad as is or has been reported.
> ...


I have a full beard, a mask is doing doodle squat especially given that I touch it a hundred times a day.

That’s not a study, it’s a fact.


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## RaisedByWolves (Jul 20, 2020)

JL8Jeff said:


> I thought I heard that CDC tests or studies from 2015 showed that cloth masks did very poorly in stopping the transmission of flu particles. The N95 masks worked well. but since the Covid19 particles are even smaller than the flu, the cloth masks don't really do much in that respect. Add to that issues with moisture retention and too many layers could limit oxygen intake and they might do more harm than good. But like you said, the internet has so much twisted information nowadays, you can't really believe anything. It's obviously still spreading so whether it's through particles in the air or on surfaces that people touch, we don't seem to have a real good answer to that. I personally think that the spread that happened in NY and NJ was from people using mass transit. Someone from my town got it months ago and he takes the train to NY for work. I think one of the interesting concepts is that every virus has a certain percentage of infection before it burns itself out. A rough example is if you say that 50% of the people in NY/NJ have already been exposed/infected. If 25% of them were asymptomatic then that would mean the next round wouldn't be worse than the first round. So the other 50% of the people left who could get it, 25% are asymptomatic and it won't bother them. NY/NJ have overinflated death rates due to the nursing home debacle so the next round should have a lower death rate. I'm hoping our area has been through the worst at this point but who knows. IMO, the mask thing should be up to the business that you are visiting. And any smart business owner would require masks to protect their patrons and workers. But even with the masks, I see so many workers fiddling with them constantly so anything on the mask is now on their hands/gloves and can easily be transmitted to patrons. I don't think we have any good answers or valid studies to justify either position. I'm not a germaphobe but I have always made sure to wash my hands often to protect myself and others. I haven't had a cold in almost 3 years so I think the washing thing really works.


One of the most damning things I have read is that a fart droplet is three times the size of a cough droplet.

If it doesn't stop a fart, it’s not stopping a virus.


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## handyandy (Jul 20, 2020)

yeah I'm really worried about how bad things may get economically after the gov't finally decides to quit the handouts. What I find interesting about covid is that in healthy people some are really affected by it get a terrible fever, can't hardly do anything, and some do have to go to the hospital, and some healthy people do die from it. Yet some are hardly affected and/or don't even know they have/had it. It's bad, but I really do think it's been blown out of proportion, and I hate how inaccurately the numbers of cases/deaths are reported. We keep hearing about the rise in cases recently, but what isn't told is how many are cases form people testing positive that just got tested, but never got that sick. I'm always curious as to how many of these cases are people that are really sick that had to go to the doctor or hospital cause they were ill. I'd like to know how many of these cases are people that just decided to get tested just to see if they have it, or had it now that testing is being done all over, but they never had any bad symptoms. How many people have honestly died from it that were otherwise fine and not at a near end of life age already?

I know of one person that died from it. Of people I know at work that have tested positive, I haven't heard of any of them being so ill they had to go to the hospital. The person I know that died was a friends mother who was in her early 90's and had been in a nursing home the last couple years. It's horrible that she died, she tested positive covid, but I really don't count that as a covid death. I mean a feeble 92 year old dying, to me that's just dying from old age. 

My grandmother died a few years ago at 92 as well. Her cause of death was falling into a diabetic comma, but really she was 92 she died of old age. She was never overweight, or that unhealthy she was diagnosed with diabetes in her late 80's. We were kind of baffled when she was diagnosed with diabetes, since most people that get it as an adult are typically overweight and out of shape for a long while. Doc said it just happens sometimes with old age the body doesn't work like it use to, but many people get it sooner from being fat and out of shape all their lives. Anyways I don't really consider my grandmother deaths cause from diabetes, I consider it to be from old age. She was old she lived a long good life and at some point something gets you cause your old and your body just can't fight it. Sure I guess diabetes was what ultimately killed her, but in reality she was old, she had dementia pretty bad, she could barely get around with a walker, she was feeble old woman at the end of her life span. I feel a lot of the covid deaths are from similar situations.


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## LDUBS (Jul 20, 2020)

Kind of random in response to some of the comments shared. 

I want the economy to open as much as anyone. Right now we should all be helping by wearing masks and keeping social distancing. It is irresponsible to not wear a mask and expose others. Masks are not optional if you are a responsible person. 

No one claims masks are 100% effective. But until we have a vaccine they, along with social distancing, are the best defense we have to control spread. Claims that masks provide no protection are utter nonsense. If you truly believe that, the next time you have surgery, tell your surgeon not to wear a mask. 

My wife’s grandmother passed when she was 99 years old. I doubt she would have agreed her life had no value after 90. 82% of covid-19 deaths happen to people 66 years and older. 63% for 75 & older. There is no magic age limit where life no longer has value. So far 143,000 Americans have died from coronavirus in the last 5 months. All but 26,000 were us old people. Did some have dementia, sure. Were some short for this world, sure. But I’ll bet any amount of money you care to wager the vast majority of those 117,000 would prefer to still be alive today. 

After being hit so hard, New York and others are now seeing some of the lowest rates of positive tests in the country. That is terrific news but it does not mean it is a good model to follow. If extending the NY example to other populous areas means the same death rate, we would see something in excess of 500,000 deaths. No one wants that. 

Yesterday, over 60,000 new cases happened and 498 people died in America. And someone has concerns about wearing a mask because of their beard. Trim it for gosh sake. But even if you don’t, when you cough into your mask you will capture a significant amount of what would otherwise be projected to the people around you. Do the right thing. Wear a mask. 

It is time for Americans to put their personal needs & biases aside and pull together. And hey, if it turns out masks were not useful, no one really lost much did they.


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## RaisedByWolves (Jul 22, 2020)

If masks are the answer why are businesses closing and tanking the economy?

As to the surgeon question no, but I wouldn’t want one operating on me with a mask he’s adjusted after touching every available surface he’s come into contact with in the past three days either.

I’m a trained first responder and mask/glove protocols are a huge deal both for you and the patient.

Ask any medically trained person what they think of the average persons mask protocol and they will reply with either a laugh or “What protocol?”


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## LDUBS (Jul 22, 2020)

I don't think, or at least hope, that anyone one is saying masks are the answer. Masks are just one of the ways we have to control spread. Let's remember one of the bad things about this virus is a lot of people are walking around with it without even knowing. That makes it easy to spread. I wear a mask when I'm in public. The risk of my spreading the virus are reduced. Simple as that. 

I would offer that businesses are closing because we have not been able to manage the virus. Meaning it continues to spread in many places in the US. 

Of course the average person isn't going to have the same knowledge as a medically trained person. That is not a valid argument to not wear a mask in public to decrease spread of the virus. Try using that excuse with any professional public health official and they will advise that everyone wear a mask in public.


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## RaisedByWolves (Jul 25, 2020)

Found this from Mike Rowe.

Yeah, he’s a reality TV star, so is the President, deal with it their both intelligent men.

https://mikerowe.com/2020/07/im-not-ignoring-covid/


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## KMixson (Jul 25, 2020)

In the service when you go for gas mask training you learn that a good seal is important. A clean shave and a tight fit are wanted. I wear a mask myself but I feel it is more for show than being effective. I have used these types of mask that they recommend while spray painting and find the paint just comes around the edges and you end up breathing the paint anyway. I use a rubber faced respirator for painting to seal out paint particles better.


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## LDUBS (Jul 25, 2020)

RaisedByWolves said:


> Found this from Mike Rowe.
> 
> Yeah, he’s a reality TV star, so is the President, deal with it their both intelligent men.
> 
> https://mikerowe.com/2020/07/im-not-ignoring-covid/



Come on now, let's leave science to scientists and entertainment to celebrities. 

Anyway, the entire article is Mike Rowe's praise and acceptance of Dr. Osterholm's conclusions. BTW, Dr. Osterholm recommends that masks be worn.


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## LDUBS (Jul 25, 2020)

KMixson said:


> In the service when you go for gas mask training you learn that a good seal is important. A clean shave and a tight fit are wanted. I wear a mask myself but I feel it is more for show than being effective. I have used these types of mask that they recommend while spray painting and find the paint just comes around the edges and you end up breathing the paint anyway. I use a rubber faced respirator for painting to seal out paint particles better.



Many many moons ago when I was in the fire service we were not allowed beards because we were expected to wear breathing apparatus.


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## RaisedByWolves (Jul 26, 2020)

LDUBS said:


> RaisedByWolves said:
> 
> 
> > Found this from Mike Rowe.
> ...



Its an opinion piecs, I agree with his opinion.

No one is saying masks should not be worn, but then again....


https://nypost.com/2020/07/24/anthony-fauci-denies-hypocrisy-after-watching-game-without-mask/

Now that he is backpedaling saying he was sipping water while clearly holding a cellphone to take a picture. :---) 

And he was tested the day before? Cool, explain away the fact that you were just around a dozen or so people prepping you to throw out the first pitch.

Theres also the gaff of stating early on that the population at large wouldn't benefit from wearing a mask. #-o 

Whach what people do, not what they say. :wink:

This guy seems like a master of explaining things away.


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## LDUBS (Jul 26, 2020)

I saws the pic's and story about Doc Fauci not wearing the mask. One of those "do as I say" moments for sure. I have to admit I laughed when he claimed he was being picked on. 

By the way, I admit that in general I would agree with most of Mike Rowe's opinions.


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## Crazyboat (Jul 27, 2020)

***Disclaimer***

I'd like to start with, I don't think anyone here wants to hurt another person, period, end of story. The next to last thing I want to do is offend anyone, the last thing I want to do is take away or infringe on anyone's rights.


That said, let's start with what a right is. A right is every bit part of ones life as breathing is. In this country we are born with, not granted our rights by some government agency.


That said, we have freedom to assemble and freedom to practice the religion of our choice. Those two freedoms were taken away during the early stages of this virus. Where in the constitution or bill of rights does it say, "These rights listed are in effect unless the shit hits the fan"? Answer is, it doesn't, your rights are your rights, and the more we allow them to infringe upon them now, the more they will infringe upon them later. (Edit) Unless you were part of a riot or BLM march

They dictate that the big box stores get to remain open but mom and pop stores that sell socks, pants, shoes, must close. Why can't mom and pop shops allow 2-3 people in a store at one time to shop, to pay their bills and put food on the table, but Wal mart can allow in hundreds at a time?

How come there was no crazy numbers listed for grocery checkers infected with COVID? Because there were no high numbers?

So landlords had to swallow the loss of income from rent or stores had to pay it even though they weren't open, millions of small businesses across the country had to dig deep into their savings or go belly up due to this, why not allow adults to make adult decisions based on their own lever of assumed risk? 

Kids almost never die from this, young adults rarely die from this, why not allow them to continue with their lives? I work on a passenger railroad, I worked every day, no mask, just common sense to me and my co workers precautions. 

Some said their right to live trumped another's right to work, well going to work could be the difference between living and dying how many committed suicide during this outbreak? How many unfortunate kids got an extra beating every day because their abusive parent was home all the time and there was no school to escape to? How many battered wives took another beating for the same reason?

How many "fake laws" that's right, FAKE laws were you told existed that weren't real laws? To pass a law there's a process, you go through the legislature, you take the steps, this is not a dictatorship, there's got to be an ordinance past, without one there is no LAW!

So now that we've proven we live in a dictatorship (most states) we can ignore those "orders". 


There are real laws on the books in many places that you cannot wear a mask in public, now they tell you you're breaking the law if you don't wear one, make up your minds.


I personally don't agree with abortion, but the my body my choice thing should hold true for everyone for all reasons. If you feel at risk, stay home, enjoy the time away from us sicko's. If I die, I'll at least die a free man, having lived my life as I saw fit. Freedom is not free, it never was, nor will it ever be, there's a price on everything. I'm willing to take that risk, hell I do so every time I step off the curb or drive my car.


I'll barrow this I recently read: "You should wear a mask, it protects me from you, just as I wear a mask to protect you from me."

So, why don't you carry a gun, it will protect me from a bad guy looking to do me harm, just as I carry a gun to protect you from a bad guy with a gun.

I don't begrudge you for wanting to protect yourself from a very real virus, just don't try infringing upon my right to feed my family and move about freely. My life is as precious to me as yours is to you, we just go about living them differently.

Sweeden and 6 states here in the US didn't have a lockdown and they turned out fine, this is about control, the govt forgets that control comes from the citizens, not from the pen. We control and limit govt, not the other way around.

Now, onto the "vaccine", the flu vaccine may work on 40% of cases every year, do you really expect me to load up my body and the body of my kids with a vaccine that is unproven at any level and then add on to it every year as this virus morphs?

IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!


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## LDUBS (Jul 27, 2020)

Sweden has the seventh highest covid-19 deaths per capita in the entire world. Seventh out of over 200 countries. Yep, real facts are tough. As to bogus science claims, I will only say whether someone thinks they have a particular entitlement has no relevance whatsoever as to whether their belief is true. 

In the old days people realized freedoms were earned with responsible actions. Remember the famous quote: “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country”. Now days the people think they are born entitled to do what they please, common good of our country be damned. It is all me, me, me. No wonder we are becoming the laughing stock of the world.


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## Crazyboat (Jul 28, 2020)

News flash, we are born with our God Given Rights, they are not granted to us by man, nor earned, you are born with them. If you feel threatened, stay home. Don't expect me to kill my family via starvation or financial burden for anyone.

The Bill of Rights lists our rights in order to protect the smallest minority, the individual, that is me and mine, you don't get to infringe upon my rights. You speak of the old days, as if it were ancient history, I was alive when those words by JFK were spoken.

Another tidbit of information, the last time religious expression was suppressed they "lawfully" had the JEWS march onto box cars to be slaves and killed.

There was also a time in this country that they injected citizens with VD, just because.

There was this other time in this country that they put citizens into concentration camps, legally.


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## RaisedByWolves (Jul 29, 2020)

Crazyboat said:


> ***Disclaimer***
> 
> I'll barrow this I recently read: "You should wear a mask, it protects me from you, just as I wear a mask to protect you from me."
> 
> So, why don't you carry a gun, it will protect me from a bad guy looking to do me harm, just as I carry a gun to protect you from a bad guy with a gun.


You should give that borrowed analogy back, it’s pants on head tarded.


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## Crazyboat (Jul 31, 2020)

RaisedByWolves said:


> Crazyboat said:
> 
> 
> > ***Disclaimer***
> ...



I'd say it's spot on. Maybe try something that contains constructive criticism instead of calling it "Tarded", it takes away from you.


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## lckstckn2smknbrls (Jul 31, 2020)

Crazyboat said:


> RaisedByWolves said:
> 
> 
> > Crazyboat said:
> ...


+1


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## LDUBS (Aug 1, 2020)

RaisedByWolves said:


> Crazyboat said:
> 
> 
> > ***Disclaimer***
> ...



The first part is good. The second part is nonsensical.


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## Crazyboat (Aug 2, 2020)

What about it makes no sense? It's perfectly suited against the first argument. But let's not get into a pissing match, we're coming at this from different perspectives.


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## RaisedByWolves (Aug 3, 2020)

Crazyboat said:


> RaisedByWolves said:
> 
> 
> > Crazyboat said:
> ...



I don’t concern myself with the opinions of self proclaimed “Sheepdog”

People with this mindset make the rest of the shooting community look foolish.

Is foolish OK?


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## Crazyboat (Aug 3, 2020)

RaisedByWolves said:


> Crazyboat said:
> 
> 
> > RaisedByWolves said:
> ...



Again, nothing constructive about your comment. I'm not sure where anyone proclaimed themselves a "sheepdog". But you know what they say about empty barrels. You seem to fit the bill. Good day to you sir/mam. I see where your screen name comes from, so does everyone else.


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## LDUBS (Aug 3, 2020)

Coronavirus is contagious. It spreads from person to person. Wearing a mask is not 100% effective but significantly reduces that exposure. It is simple and no amount of ridiculous comments or fake facts is going to change that. 

Our upsurge in infections, hospitalizations, and deaths the is the result in large part of people who ignore simple precautions like wearing a mask when near others. They use bogus analogies, denial to suit their selfish needs, and fakery to justify their actions. 

Being blinded by selfishness, they do not see that failing to control contagion puts others at risk. Sadly, they do not seem to give a rat’s ass about that. But they also do not realize it puts their own interests at risk. Their taxes will go up. Their opportunities will be restricted as areas have to impose more close downs. They sure will lose opportunities to travel, go to school, have regular jobs, etc. Wearing a mask does not prevent someone from working or providing for their family. That is just another bogus claim for weak minded people. In fact, just the opposite is true. So, our country is not doing well compared to many others. All because, like spoilt children, the knuckleheads throw a tantrum when told they have to do something as simple as wearing a mask around others. 

The longer these selfish people refuse to take needed measures, the longer it will take to control this with even worse damage to the economy and the future of our children.


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## LDUBS (Aug 3, 2020)

RaisedByWolves said:


> Perhaps not the best word to use but it is a valid concern, nonetheless.


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## Crazyboat (Aug 3, 2020)

LDUBS said:


> Coronavirus is contagious. It spreads from person to person. Wearing a mask is not 100% effective but significantly reduces that exposure. It is simple and no amount of ridiculous comments or fake facts is going to change that.
> 
> Our upsurge in infections, hospitalizations, and deaths the is the result in large part of people who ignore simple precautions like wearing a mask when near others. They use bogus analogies, denial to suit their selfish needs, and fakery to justify their actions.
> 
> ...


If you can't have a conversation without resorting to BS like calling a persons argument bugus you've lost the argument before you started. See I can bring you a link(s) to my facts, what do you do, try and discredit others with BS.


https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/verify/verify-why-a-face-mask-box-says-it-provides-no-protection-to-the-wearer/507-d5070a18-0146-4ef9-9d22-afe9fa7759a0

In addition people with medical conditions like COPD and asthma cannot wear a mask, it's also their right to privacy under the law and bill of rights not to disclose that to you or anyone else, look it up before you go off half cocked knowing nothing or exhibiting zero knowledge of the laws. Last I checked freedom to assemble is also covered in the bill of rights, yet the govt overstepped their bounds by closing them all.

So if you can take your head out of your ass long enough to look up the facts and admit that yours's isn't the side that is supported by law then we can talk, for now I'll just go with the idea you're another fool that can't comprehend simple facts.


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## RaisedByWolves (Aug 4, 2020)

Crazyboat said:


> LDUBS said:
> 
> 
> > Coronavirus is contagious. It spreads from person to person. Wearing a mask is not 100% effective but significantly reduces that exposure. It is simple and no amount of ridiculous comments or fake facts is going to change that.
> ...




Complains about insults, tells someone to take their head out of their ass and calls them a fool. :roll: 

This has turned sadly comical.

It would appear you are getting the discussion you deserve Chief.


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## RaisedByWolves (Aug 4, 2020)

Wrong button


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## RaisedByWolves (Aug 4, 2020)

Double tap


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## LDUBS (Aug 4, 2020)

Crazyboat said:


> If you can't have a conversation without resorting to BS like calling a persons argument bugus you've lost the argument before you started. See I can bring you a link(s) to my facts, what do you do, try and discredit others with BS.
> 
> 
> https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/verify/verify-why-a-face-mask-box-says-it-provides-no-protection-to-the-wearer/507-d5070a18-0146-4ef9-9d22-afe9fa7759a0
> ...



Perhaps you should actually read the link before you post. It is about, and I quote: 

"_A viral image posing a misleading question has made the rounds online_." 

The article goes on to say 

_"it does not mean masks should not be worn."_ 

Further the article confirms " 

_cloth masks help prevent the spread of COVID-19 from those who without symptoms. This means that although cloth masks do not have the capability to filter tiny particles like an N95 mask, it can still help prevent the spread of the disease by blocking respiratory droplets that leave a person's mouth while coughing, sneezing or talking."_

There will always be outliers, meaning folks with COPD, etc. That never has been an issue. Laws provide for regulating activities during emergencies like the coronavirus pandemic. Perhaps you should talk to your congress rep if you want the laws to change. And, by the way, you can lawfully assemble all you want around here, within reason, providing you wear a mask. 

So, I've again looked at the "simple facts" you provided. I don't think you intentionally misrepresented another "fact". I think you just reacted to a popular internet photo without verifying.


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## Crazyboat (Aug 4, 2020)

You see, I did read it before posting. I don't cherry pick my info to be one sided or fit a narrative. It does not stop the spread, I can post photos of guys that hang sheet rock for a living and see their faces covered in dust. The N95 masks will protect you pretty well on the incoming side but it is vented so if the wearer is infected it does nothing to stop him from spreading it.

If you want total protection you need to wear a suit that covers all ports of entry/exit, eyes, ears, nose, mouth. Forcing people with breathing problems is against existing law, laws that were past using proper protocols, not EO's.

You'd better grab onto your rights, before they take them all away.


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## FormerParatrooper (Aug 5, 2020)

I hope everyone here is well. I have found myself very busy during this and have finally slowed to the point I can relax. Along the way during this I have traveled thru 12 states on commercial aircraft or driving when close enough. I work mostly in hospital, clinics and research facilities. Now I am going to get some fresh non ethanol fuel, replace the spark plugs in the old 25hp Evinrude, grab the fishing poles and the dog and hit the water. The best way to practice social distancing. Then to the range, need to prep for deer season and get the BP out and verify my zero. 

Keep your heads up everyone, and some may resist, but the masks while not 100 % effective are far better than nothing on your face when around people with varying levels of personal hygiene. Just like many of us learned in Basic Training, personal hygiene is key to surviving on the NBC battlefield and this definitely falls under the B of NBC .


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## LDUBS (Aug 5, 2020)

FormerParatrooper said:


> I hope everyone here is well. I have found myself very busy during this and have finally slowed to the point I can relax. Along the way during this I have traveled thru 12 states on commercial aircraft or driving when close enough. I work mostly in hospital, clinics and research facilities. Now I am going to get some fresh non ethanol fuel, replace the spark plugs in the old 25hp Evinrude, grab the fishing poles and the dog and hit the water. The best way to practice social distancing. Then to the range, need to prep for deer season and get the BP out and verify my zero.
> 
> Keep your heads up everyone, and some may resist, but the masks while not 100 % effective are far better than nothing on your face when around people with varying levels of personal hygiene. Just like many of us learned in Basic Training, personal hygiene is key to surviving on the NBC battlefield and this definitely falls under the B of NBC .



Stay safe. Folk like you that work in med facilities are appreciated.


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## LDUBS (Aug 5, 2020)

Crazyboat said:


> You see, I did read it before posting. I don't cherry pick my info to be one sided or fit a narrative. It does not stop the spread, I can post photos of guys that hang sheet rock for a living and see their faces covered in dust. The N95 masks will protect you pretty well on the incoming side but it is vented so if the wearer is infected it does nothing to stop him from spreading it.
> 
> If you want total protection you need to wear a suit that covers all ports of entry/exit, eyes, ears, nose, mouth. Forcing people with breathing problems is against existing law, laws that were past using proper protocols, not EO's.
> 
> You'd better grab onto your rights, before they take them all away.



My rights are being violated by exposure to a pandemic from guys who think they know more than public health officials because they watched a guy hang sheet rock. Now there is some real science. Maybe we should let Johns Hopkins know the study of epidemiology is a waste of time.


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## Crazyboat (Aug 6, 2020)

How is anyone violating your rights, I'll listen.

They lost their argument about masks when they released prisoners instead of giving them a mask.

If masks work so well why the 6'?

If 6' works so well why the mask?

Oh they work in conjunction, got it, then why the need for the shut down?


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## LDUBS (Aug 6, 2020)

Crazyboat said:


> How is anyone violating your rights, I'll listen.
> 
> They lost their argument about masks when they released prisoners instead of giving them a mask.
> 
> ...




If I pass on a deadly viral disease to someone because I refused to take simple precautions, then I think I have violated their right to life and the pusuit of happiness. We can exercise our rights pretty much as we want until it threatens those around us. 

We are in a crises. As of today, 162,728 Americans have died from coronavirus. Forget prisoners, people with COPD, risk manager product liability warnings, and any other outliers that people use as excuses. If mistakes are made that does not mean the rest of us shouldn't do the right thing. 

As far as your questions, don't listen to me or anyone else on a forum. Get it straight from the horses mouth. Ask your public health official. Your state has one and I'm sure you county has one too. Remember that pre-symptomatic and asymptotic folks don't even know they are spreading the virus and need the masks more than anyone. Unless we are tested frequently we don't know if we fall in that category.


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## Crazyboat (Aug 7, 2020)

Finally a solid reply. You're right, if I were sick I should be quarentined, problem is, I'm not sick and everyone I talk to says, asymptomatic people don't likely transmit the virus. But don't take my word, look it up.
In the meantime, there's this:https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/video/realities-facemasks-fight-coronavirus-exposure-69252522


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## LDUBS (Aug 9, 2020)

Crazyboat said:


> Finally a solid reply. You're right, if I were sick I should be quarentined, problem is, I'm not sick and everyone I talk to says, asymptomatic people don't likely transmit the virus. But don't take my word, look it up.
> In the meantime, there's this:https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/video/realities-facemasks-fight-coronavirus-exposure-69252522




I am aware of the thoughts regarding asymptotic spread and hope it is true, though the vote is still out because the experts at CDC still says it can be passed on from asymptomatic people. And, that still leaves pre-symptomatic people and that is a real exposure you pose to others. 

You have no idea from day-to-day if you are sick. By the time you find out 10 others are exposed and passing it on. I honestly hope it never happens to you but you are more at risk because of your behavior and it follows you put others more at risk too. I hope you never have to defend your "rights" to the person you put in the ICU. 

It is my sincere wish that you realize the science simply does not support your excuses for not wearing a mask and by not doing so, you put others at risk.


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## Crazyboat (Aug 12, 2020)

I have no doubt that you and others are good people doing what they think is the best thing for humanity. I however am a good person doing what I think is best and yet somehow I'm the bad guy and the others are the good. I'll leave this conversation with this last thought, peace to you.
https://youtu.be/KcOk1Au6xWA


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## RaisedByWolves (Aug 12, 2020)

Crazyboat said:


> I have no doubt that you and others are good people doing what they think is the best thing for humanity*. I however am a good person doing what I think is best and yet somehow I'm the bad guy and the others are the good*. I'll leave this conversation with this last thought, peace to you.
> https://youtu.be/KcOk1Au6xWA



Best for who?

Hint, it’s not all about you.


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## LDUBS (Aug 12, 2020)

Oh man, I didn't watch the whole video. I hope it eventually covered the little green men.


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## Crazyboat (Aug 13, 2020)

You get the point in the first 30 seconds. Don't be a jerk with the little green men comment, it's passive aggressive and it's not conducive to constructive conversation or criticism.

By the way, it's not all about you either.


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## LDUBS (Aug 13, 2020)

Delete.


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## RaisedByWolves (Aug 14, 2020)

Crazyboat said:


> You get the point in the first 30 seconds. Don't be a jerk with the little green men comment, it's passive aggressive and it's not conducive to constructive conversation or criticism.
> 
> By the way, it's not all about you either.



You should go back and review your behavior in this thread.

It’s quite comical in a sad way.


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## LDUBS (Aug 14, 2020)

RaisedByWolves said:


> You should go back and review your behavior in this thread.
> 
> It’s quite comical in a sad way.




I deleted my earlier response and won't play long with him any longer. Out of respect for Jim and the rest of the forum. 

Take care.


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## Crazyboat (Aug 16, 2020)

Yeah okay double tap.


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## RaisedByWolves (Aug 17, 2020)

LDUBS said:


> RaisedByWolves said:
> 
> 
> > You should go back and review your behavior in this thread.
> ...



Got any good trout recipes?


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## LDUBS (Aug 17, 2020)

RaisedByWolves said:


> LDUBS said:
> 
> 
> > RaisedByWolves said:
> ...




Not from me. I do just OK with basic BBQ grilling but not much of a cook. Wife cooks them a variety of ways. Mostly just fillets in the skillet with basic seasoning and juice from little calamansi fruits we grow in the backyard. Pretty good stuff. 

I wanted to get out today but 110 deg's forecast at the lake is just a little too toasty for me.


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## BigTerp (Jan 20, 2022)

Wondering if anyone has heard from @crazyboat? Looks like he hasn't been on since late November. I hope he, and everyone else, is well!!!


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