# If you had $5 to $8 grand what would you buy?



## bobberboy (Dec 2, 2014)

Last Tuesday we had a dusting of snow that I swept off the sidewalk. The next morning I looked out the window and noticed there was a wet spot on the walk I hadn't seen the day before. I hadn't put any ice melter on the walk so there was only one other possibility. I went out to confirm it and sure enough, the water stop-box at the sidewalk was leaking. The water was bubbling up from about six feet under the boulevard. I dug a little trench to divert the water from the walk into the gutter and called the city. A guy came out to confirm and flagged the location of the stop-box. It was the day before Thanksgiving and he told us that we'd hear from someone the following Monday. He also told us that we were now one among 42 locations in the city with leaking water lines.

In the mean time the trickle became a small stream and with temps on Thanksgiving at 0° the water in the gutter was freezing. By mid-day the ice was almost to the center line on the street. We called the city to express our concern it was becoming a safety issue and before long trucks were spreading salt and trying to clear the gutter so the water could run to the storm sewer. We're about mid way on the block so it was a pretty big mess. Over the course of a few days the city spread enough salt to make an inland sea in front of our house (look honey, is that a beluga whale?). 

This continued through the weekend and on Monday morning the pay-loader finally showed up to get real with the ice. In about an hours' time the operator scraped up a truckload of ice. Then a very nice man from the city stopped by to confirm what was going on and explain what was next. The city will contact about a dozen contractors for bids and give us a choice of the three lowest. Expected cost - $5,000 to $8,000! I was so stunned I couldn't even become outraged. The very nice man explained that in 1991 the city transferred ownership of the water line to the home owner. As the home owner we own the water line to the main so we pay for all - digging, replacement of the water line and street repair. We are also required to replace any remaining lead pipe with copper.

That's my tale of woe. Could have bought a nice boat for that money, or a large TV (not as big as Jim is getting though!). Could have taken a vacation to someplace pretty warm and had enough $ left over to get some new fishing stuff. I'm doing my best to keep an "is what it is" mindset, because it is and there's nothing I can do about it. It's hard though.

Oh, forgot to mention - the reason it took the very nice man till Monday to get here is that he is the only person in the city (our population is about 400,000) who does this job. No one else will do it. By the time he arrived at 10 on Monday he'd already been at 3 other houses to deliver bad news. He said it's all he does. Arrives, confirms, dispenses bad news and goes on to the next house. I almost felt sorrier for him than myself. 

I know how much everyone likes pics...I took it through the window as it was +1°.


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## Jim (Dec 2, 2014)

Ouch man, That hurts big time.


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## JMichael (Dec 2, 2014)

That's gotta suck, especially with Xmas just around the corner. Seems a bit strange to me though that they say you own water lines that aren't actually on your own property. Around here, the city owns everything from the water main up to and including the water meter. The home owner owns and is responsible for the water line from the meter to the house. That's usually not more than 40-50' of ¾-1" copper or poly water line and that line is only buried about 18" deep. So anyone that's slightly handy with plumbing could rent a trencher and replace their own line for a grand total of probably not more than a few hundred bucks and a few hours worth of work. Good luck with yours and I hope you get lucky with the cost being on the bottom end of the scale.

BTW are they gonna try to stick you with the cost of all that water that was lost?


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## RiverBottomOutdoors (Dec 2, 2014)

Absurd. How can you be responsible for lines that run underneath a damn street? Tell them since you apparently own the street it will now become a toll road. Would be nice if you had the money to burn and hired a lawyer to sue the city. I would bet a good lawyer would win and send a message.


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## bobberboy (Dec 2, 2014)

JMichael said:


> That's gotta suck, especially with Xmas just around the corner. Seems a bit strange to me though that they say you own water lines that aren't actually on your own property. Around here, the city owns everything from the water main up to and including the water meter. The home owner owns and is responsible for the water line from the meter to the house. That's usually not more than 40-50' of ¾-1" copper or poly water line and that line is only buried about 18" deep. So anyone that's slightly handy with plumbing could rent a trencher and replace their own line for a grand total of probably not more than a few hundred bucks and a few hours worth of work. Good luck with yours and I hope you get lucky with the cost being on the bottom end of the scale.
> 
> BTW are they gonna try to stick you with the cost of all that water that was lost?



I agree on all accounts. It does suck and I don't quite understand about the homeowner owning the line to the main. I'm trying to make myself feel better knowing that by making the homeowner responsible for the total cost that the property taxes are lower. Frankly, right about now I'd go for a little higher property tax bill so that my fellow citizens would be helping to pay the expense. In the end it's a "you can pay me now or you can pay me later" kind of deal. Because of the severe cold we can get here the line is about 6' deep so it takes a backhoe and a steel cage to prevent cave ins. Not what a typical homeowner has in the garage. We are only charged for the water that comes through the meter which is in the house (the meter, not the water!). And we aren't charged for the many hours the city has spent keeping the road safe.

If Jim hadn't made this a family rated web site I'd go on...


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## bobberboy (Dec 2, 2014)

RiverBottomOutdoors said:


> Absurd. How can you be responsible for lines that run underneath a damn street? Tell them since you apparently own the street it will now become a toll road. Would be nice if you had the money to burn and hired a lawyer to sue the city. I would bet a good lawyer would win and send a message.



Thanks for your sense of outrage. I'm still too shocked to have found mine. All good questions. I don't know. I like the toll road idea but I'd have to also maintain the 40' piece of road. I don't get it either.


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## DocWatson (Dec 2, 2014)

bobberboy said:


> RiverBottomOutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > Absurd. How can you be responsible for lines that run underneath a damn street? Tell them since you apparently own the street it will now become a toll road. Would be nice if you had the money to burn and hired a lawyer to sue the city. I would bet a good lawyer would win and send a message.
> ...


Unfortunately the sense of moral outrage is only going to get you a case of sore feet from romping' and stomping' about something that is a done deal. If the city deeded the line and the responsibility for it to you, it's yours. Period !! They don't have a guy on the payroll giving out bad news to folks as his job description just so they can defend against the lawsuits. The laws are different in every municipality and if you're a land or homeowner, you really need to know what they are in relation to your property ownership. If you buy a property with an existing easement, you are buying the easement too. Same thing with the zoning and real estate laws where you own property.

Unfortunately, your response of stunned silence and sad resignation is really your only viable option. You really can't fight City Hall. 

BTW - I'd take 10 days of fishing and diving on Cat Island in the Bahamas with the 5-8 grand !!! So, you certainly have my condolences !!!


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## KMixson (Dec 2, 2014)

Since you own the pipes to the main, I would tell them that you prefer to have water running down the street and that you are not going to fix it. If they insist it be fixed, tell them to pay for it themselves or donate to the cause. When all of the donations are received then you will fix it. Probably won't work, but worth a shot.


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## TexasLoneStar56 (Dec 2, 2014)

Bobber,

If I had $5k to $8k;

I'd spend it on two airline tickets to Dallas, Texas, for you and the Mrs. You would have a rental car awaiting. Then, I'd pay for you a really nice rental cabin and boat on Lake Fork for about a month. You could do all the bass fishing you could stand, all the while being close to shopping for the Mrs.

It would get you out of the extreme cold, and perhaps take a load off a weary mind. Having said that, it would only cost about $3k, so I would send the rest up north for your water to be fixed, while you and the Mrs. were having a nice warm month long vacation.

That's what I would do. Truly. But since I don't have it, I'll be praying. All things are possible with Him!

Keith


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## bobberboy (Dec 3, 2014)

So, a little good news. The water main is on my side of the street and that means about 18' less street to dig up if it had been on the other. That keeps me closer to the lower end of the estimate. Supposed to have bids in a day or two. Trying to keep up a good attitude.


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## lovedr79 (Dec 3, 2014)

so if you own it that means you can fix it yourself. It is pretty typical that once it leaves the mainline it becomes your problem.


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## bobberboy (Dec 5, 2014)

Didn't dodge the bullet but it wasn't fatal either...$5400.00. The highest bid was an incredible $9000! Oh my.


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## KMixson (Dec 5, 2014)

bobberboy said:


> Didn't dodge the bullet but it wasn't fatal either...$5400.00. The highest bid was an incredible $9000! Oh my.



Ouch! That is still not pocket change. I hope the repair will last you a lifetime.


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## bobberboy (Dec 5, 2014)

KMixson said:


> bobberboy said:
> 
> 
> > Didn't dodge the bullet but it wasn't fatal either...$5400.00. The highest bid was an incredible $9000! Oh my.
> ...



At my age that won't be a problem...


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## earl60446 (Dec 6, 2014)

We are responsible to the sidewalk valve which is underneath the sidewalk of course. Having to dig up the street should not be a homeowners cost but old neighborhoods made mistakes like that when they were developed. Of course this always happens in winter weather because of all the freezing and thawing.
Tim


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## bobberboy (Dec 6, 2014)

earl60446 said:


> We are responsible to the sidewalk valve which is underneath the sidewalk of course. Having to dig up the street should not be a homeowners cost but old neighborhoods made mistakes like that when they were developed. Of course this always happens in winter weather because of all the freezing and thawing.
> Tim



I don't remember the details but in 1991 the city "transferred" ownership of the line to the owner. I think is was an effort of the city council to appear to have lowered property taxes. I believe this way the cost of individual owners' water problems were directed to the owner - not shared by the community. If the city doesn't have to pay for the hole in the street presumably that savings would be seen in lower property taxes overall. I think it's BS frankly. No one on or running for council would ever propose to change it back as it would undoubtedly raise taxes.


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## GTS225 (Dec 6, 2014)

You did right by replacing it all at once. 
Mine started with the line between the curb stop and the house. Got it replaced, along with the curb stop valve. Two years later, it's leaking again. Contractor dug down to find the line between the main and the curb stop was rotted and broken. Had it repaired, and two years later, it's flowing again, out in the street. Yep, my line, rotting further back again, and the main runs on the far side of the street from the house. Had them replace the whole run from the main to the curb stop that time. Four foot square hole in the concrete on the far side, with a matching one on "my" side, and they attached new line to the old and pulled it in horizontally. Still, over the course of the four years, I've got about 9 or 10 grand in it.
Isn't it interesting that at about the end of the expected lifespan of the galvanized steel feeders that they buried way back when, they transfer ownership to the property owner?

Roger


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## DocWatson (Dec 10, 2014)

bobberboy said:


> Didn't dodge the bullet but it wasn't fatal either...$5400.00. The highest bid was an incredible $9000! Oh my.



Make sure you know and understand your towns regulations on required repairs to any sidewalk or street you dig up or damage going under it. Some towns require the patch to be smooth and not a bump in the roadway. Ask the low bid how the finished job will look and ALWAYS insist on and be certain that your contractor gets all the proper permits and has the finished job inspected by the local inspector.

Good luck.


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## bobberboy (Dec 10, 2014)

DocWatson said:


> bobberboy said:
> 
> 
> > Didn't dodge the bullet but it wasn't fatal either...$5400.00. The highest bid was an incredible $9000! Oh my.
> ...



Thanks. The way it's going to work is that the city will hire the contractor now that we've chosen the bid. The guy at the city told us he always recommends taking the lowest bid because they all have to do exactly the same work. The city will take care of all - hiring, inspecting the work from start to finish including riding herd on the contractor. We only need to sign the check. I think this is a good system as people generally don't have experiences dealing with contractors. The city is really involved every step of the way - except for ownership of the dang line!


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## lovedr79 (Dec 10, 2014)

that sucks. what if you were capable of fixing it yourself?


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## BloodStone (Dec 10, 2014)

*Don't you just L-O-V-E government?? *



> I don't remember the details but in 1991 the city "transferred" ownership of the line to the owner. I think is was an effort of the city council to appear to have lowered property taxes.



* QUESTION: What are your city taxes for then (besides paying the absurd salary of Bad News Barret)? 
Was this a city ballet proposal voted on by the citizenry during an election year or a shady deal done quietly by the mayor & city council alone?
If I were you, I'd get together with the other 3 residents, find a nasty, mean lawyer for a free consolation & see what he/she had to say about it? 
Or better still, contact your local state representatives & or the state Attorney General. Because it seems to me that little scam the city is pulling 
can't really be legal because you don't own the street, the city does. Just like you don't own the sidewalk in front of your house or the easement either. 
Do they charge the citizenry to fix the potholes in the street too? 
Don't rollover for these b*astards-FIGHT! :x 
(for $5,000-$8,000.00 I sure as Hell would!)*


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## JMichael (Dec 10, 2014)

BloodStone said:


> *Don't you just L-O-V-E government?? *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You sound about the same as I would feel about it if it were me in that situation. It just sounds fishy (pun intended :mrgreen: ) to me that the homeowner wasn't aware of this responsibly. Besides, what do they do with the revenue generated by the water dept and taxes?


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## WaterWaif (Dec 10, 2014)

A. A well could be installed at the cost of repair in most places.(yes I know you are obligated to accept and pay for city water and of course sewer to discharge that water.)
B. It's mine to deal with?
Then I would like to request a zoning ordnance change. 
A trout pound would look good in my front yard! [-o< 
Sorry to read of your plight Bobberboy.
Hope the utility companies are not all trying the same approach there.


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## bobberboy (Dec 11, 2014)

I really appreciate everyones outrage. I can't know but I have to wonder how many of you live outside of city jurisdictions. Those of you who do have somewhat more control of your properties and somewhat less of people telling you what you can and can't do. In order for me to do the work I'd first have to have a contractor's license - the city's not going to let just any bohunk dig around in their streets. In addition to water, there is also gas, sanitary and storm sewers down there. I'd have to be insured specifically for doing that type of work. I'd have to own or rent a backhoe (and know how to operate it). I'd have to own or rent the steel cage that's dropped into the hole to prevent cave-ins. I'd have to own or rent the "mole" that pulls the new pipe underground from the house to the hole in the street and know how to use it so the new pipe didn't end up next door. 

I can't do any of these things. I was born on a farm and grew up in the country and learned to do a lot of things for myself. Being the son of a farmer I learned the necessity of having to repair things yourself. You can't be in the middle of the back 40 and wait around for some repair guy to show up when work needs to be done. My dad was the impresario of electrical tape and bailing wire. With those two materials he could have conquered small countries if he'd put his mind to it. I appreciate the ability to do things for oneself and take great pride in being able to do so.

My career choice took me to the city and with that came a lot of trade-offs. I have the security of having fire and police minutes away. The city plows and repairs the street I live on. But I can't build a shed larger than 100 sq/ft without the city's permission. I can't build a fence wherever I want. I can't keep bees or even chickens without a permit. Most annoyingly of all, I can't shoot the plague of squirrels constantly assaulting my bird feeders. The other thing I can't do is to repair city services. In all these matters I'm boned.

I completely agree with you that this is a heap of BS. Thing is that the change in "ownership" of the water line is now more than 20 years past and I can't imagine it hasn't been challenged before. How can I be required to own something beyond my property is indeed a mystery and full of $hit. To be made to own something that I have no control over or access to is pretty lame. I believe I mentioned earlier this transfer of ownership was probably done as a way for the city to cut its budget. And as someone else mentioned to have done so when many of the houses in the city are nearing the 100 year mark was an effort of the city to avoid what would have been a huge expense as the lines begin to fail wholesale (the day I called in to the city to report the leak, mine was #42 on the list at that time). 

What are my taxes going for? Lots of things I'm sure but not for this. My city has a renowned park and lake system - a real plus when you have to drive more than 30 minutes to find the "country". We have pretty good public services including plowing all that snow we tend to get in the winter. In the last three decades the city has had to remove many thousands of elm trees due to Dutch elm disease and now it's the ash trees turn. I'm sure there are many other things to add to the list. I guess 20 years ago when the change in ownership was made I and my fellow citizens weren't paying attention or maybe we wanted property tax relief and broken water pipes seemed like a long way in the future. Whatever the case, a moment's inattention and this is the harvest we sowed all those years ago.

So, a letter to my council person is about the only thing to do to express my outrage. The correct phrase is "righteous indignation" and I thank you all for adding yours to the chorus. I don't want to look like I'm copping out. I'm just trying to be realistic. Being in my 60's I've learned about swimming upstream. You've really got to have the endurance if you're going to try otherwise you end up exhausted, or worse.


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## DocWatson (Dec 11, 2014)

bobberboy said:


> DocWatson said:
> 
> 
> > bobberboy said:
> ...



That's probably the best solution to the problem, given the circumstances. Unlike government to be so reasonable and make the contractor toe the line, regardless of their bid. And this is really not a DIY job unless you do excavation work for a living. Most towns don't have any idea where the water lines for houses run under a property since the builders weren't always required to follow any guidelines back in the day and ran them where they liked. If you fail to have the utility companies come out and mark their lines and runs, you could dig one up by accident and have to pay for that fix as well, or break an electric or gas line and really have a problem. City life is not as free as the rural life, but it has to be so for the good of all. I'm over 60 as well and have learned, like you, to only pick fights I have time to finish and am pretty certain I can win. :wink:


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## BloodStone (Dec 11, 2014)

> So, a letter to my council person is about the only thing to do to express my outrage.



Forget the city council! Like I said before, contact your local state representatives & your State Attorney General. 
This CAN'T be legal. I'd also talk to an OUT-OF-TOWN lawyer who specializes in property rights etc... 
After all, you're not talking a few hundred bucks here (& what about those senior citizens on fixed incomes?). 
And why should it be the citizens responsibility or "fault" because of poor planning by the city forefathers? 
Also, the city imo is handing you a pile of BS because I know for a fact (having done an internship in city government) 
that there are state & federal grants available to small towns & cities for various public works projects. 
Your city manager should know this better than anyone. Call him/her out on it. On a side note, ask him/her 
whatever happened to Obama's _"stimulus package"_ (circa 2009) and all those _"shovel ready jobs"_ :roll: (aka funds for public sector work on roads & bridges)? 
Not busting your chops here, just offering up suggestions-Good luck & give em' Hell!


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## Lowe 2070 CC (Dec 12, 2014)

BloodStone said:


> > So, a letter to my council person is about the only thing to do to express my outrage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Your posts would be much easier to read if they weren't always in *Bold* type.


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## BloodStone (Dec 13, 2014)

> Your posts would be much easier to read if they weren't always in *Bold* type.


*

I do that so the elderly here & those with poor eyesight can still read them.* 
(better? )


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## Lowe 2070 CC (Dec 15, 2014)

I would suggest you just make the Font size larger, rather than making everything *Bold* :wink:


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## bobberboy (Dec 16, 2014)

So the issue of font size and weight notwithstanding, I have an update. In an incredible stroke of good fortune our homeowner's policy pays for the hole! I don't understand the logic behind it but our insurance will pay for the hole to be dug and for it to be repaired again. It won't pay to do the actual repair of the water line buy hey, the hole's gotta cost a lot to dig and fill in again. USAA insurance is awesome. I would have bet that the insurance wouldn't pay for anything.

The contractor still hasn't showed up. We've got a little delta forming in the gutter from the sand being brought up with the water. Still have good water pressure in the house so it's not a problem so far.


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## KMixson (Dec 16, 2014)

Glad to hear that you are covered at least partly. Still hurts, but not as bad.


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## BloodStone (Dec 17, 2014)

KMixson said:


> Glad to hear that you are covered at least partly. Still hurts, but not as bad.




Yeah as long as they don't turn around raise your rates later. [-o<
(I'd still contact your State Reps & Attorney General & at least ask them some questions regarding legality).


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## TexasLoneStar56 (Jan 21, 2015)

Bobber,

I was just checking to see about your lines. I've been busy and haven't been on here in a bit and was thinking about it today. I'm glad you got it fixed and your home owners insurance paid some. Funny how the power of prayer works.....  

Keith


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## bobberboy (Jan 22, 2015)

TexasLoneStar56 said:


> Bobber,
> 
> I was just checking to see about your lines. I've been busy and haven't been on here in a bit and was thinking about it today. I'm glad you got it fixed and your home owners insurance paid some. Funny how the power of prayer works.....
> 
> Keith



It just got fixed last week. They had to put a steel contraption kind of like an upside-down hog trough with an LP heater inside to thaw the street and ground beneath. It took two days and a second hole in the yard to get it done. They found frozen ground down to three feet. I didn't look back to see if I reported the bids. High bid was $9000! Low bid was $5400. We took the low bid. The city guy said that the contractors all have to do the same work - they all have to have their work inspected so there was no sense taking any other than the low bid. The permits alone cost $1450; including a $650 permit to turn off the water main.

On the plus side, several good things to report. First we have no lead in the water line anymore and our water pressure/volume is much improved. The contractors were nice guys, did good work and did it efficiently. The best surprise was that without exception every person from the city water department was a pleasure to deal with. They were helpful, informed and informative, and pleasant. Not what I've learned to expect from the city. Hats off to the Minneapolis Water Department. Insurance paid 2/3's of the cost so all in all we escaped relatively unscathed.

We learned a little along the way too. We discovered we have "short water", meaning the main is on our side of the street versus "long water" which would have had the main on the other side. Having short water probably cut a couple grand off the cost as they might have had to close the street or dig two holes in the street in addition to the one in the yard. Short water it turns out is less expensive than long water. Who knew?

One little bit of irony was, of course, the leak was on the main side of the stop box. Under the old regime the city would have been responsible for all but the new copper to the house.


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## DocWatson (Jan 22, 2015)

More as a point of information than to stir things up again, if the leak was on the main side of the stop box it should be the town's responsibility to fix that.....
https://www.homeserveusa.com/about-...ice-line-information/homeowner-responsibility

But that might have something to do with why your insurance picked up the tab for the hole in your yard but not the pipe. If there was nothing wrong with it, the pipe replacement is kinda like replacing the water pump on a car when you replace the thermostat.... you're already in there, so why not do it. 

Glad you got it fixed at a price you can (almost) live with.


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## bobberboy (Jan 22, 2015)

DocWatson said:


> More as a point of information than to stir things up again, if the leak was on the main side of the stop box it should be the town's responsibility to fix that.....
> https://www.homeserveusa.com/about-...ice-line-information/homeowner-responsibility



Pre 1992, yes. After that the city "transferred" ownership of the line to the main to the homeowner.


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