# Two Stroke or Four Stroke?



## the fisherman guy (Mar 19, 2014)

Ok - I realize I have been bombarding the board looking for advice recently, and everyone has been fantastic is helping out with providing advice. 

Here is my predicament.

The boat I have is a 1436 Crestliner. Rated for 20hp. 

I am considering two different motors, *both motors are new and never used*. 

Motor 1: 
2014 Yamaha 20hp Four stroke short shaft. With dealer incentives, I can walk out the door with it for $3600. 
120lbs

Motor 2: 
2012 Yamaha 25hp Two stroke short shaft. Out the door $4100.
106lbs
**Two stroke motors aren't available new anymore here in Canada, and finding this one in my city was difficult (it's the only one left)

I do not care about hole shot. I care about torque heading up and down river, and top speed. 

I want the best motor for the job, and reliability is very important to me. My only concern with the two stroke would be idling and starting. Both motors are manual/pull start. 

What do you suggest?


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## ccm (Mar 19, 2014)

Tough choice. Four strokes get better fuel economy and you aren't shelling out extra money for oil every trip. The 25 would give you more speed because it's lighter and has more HP. Yamaha makes very good motors and you probably wont see very much difference in top end speed. Me personally I would go with the 20hp 4 stroke and add a hydrofoil and stainless steel prop. The SS prop will give you a better top end speed because it doesn't flex like an aluminum prop.


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## the fisherman guy (Mar 19, 2014)

Thanks CCM, good advice. I failed to mention, this boat will be used exclusively in rivers. I have a lake boat, with a large four stroke on it and I couldn't be happier with it. 

This is the source of my predicament. If this were for still water, I would put a 9.9 on it and save the money. Still get to my destination, just would take me a little longer. 

I want it to plane with two ~250lb guys in it, and take us upstream without the bow pointing toward Mars.


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## lckstckn2smknbrls (Mar 19, 2014)

Motor number 2.


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## bulrid8 (Mar 20, 2014)

Prices of new outboards are ridiculous. You could buy an older used motor, have it completely rebuilt top to bottom. Have a new motor and save $2000. Maybe I'm getting old, just cannot see an outboard being worth $4000.


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## stevesecotec02 (Mar 20, 2014)

I would be all over that 2 stroke.


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## ccm (Mar 20, 2014)

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=345514#p345514 said:


> the fisherman guy » 19 Mar 2014, 21:00[/url]"]Thanks CCM, good advice. I failed to mention, this boat will be used exclusively in rivers. I have a lake boat, with a large four stroke on it and I couldn't be happier with it.
> 
> This is the source of my predicament. If this were for still water, I would put a 9.9 on it and save the money. Still get to my destination, just would take me a little longer.
> 
> I want it to plane with two ~250lb guys in it, and take us upstream without the bow pointing toward Mars.



Didn't know you were going to pack two guys my size :LOL2: Get the two stroke more HP less weight and I would still put an SS prop and Hydrofoil on it for better performance.


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## DanMC (Mar 20, 2014)

#2....three years ago when we got our Honda outboards (reliability is very important) the 25HP was like $6000 ! (bf25,,electric start) and the little guy 2HP (bf2) was $1300 .....in Canada.


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## SumDumGuy (Mar 20, 2014)

#2 

and this...



[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=345529#p345529 said:


> bulrid8 » 19 Mar 2014, 22:11[/url]"]Prices of new outboards are ridiculous. You could buy an older used motor, have it completely rebuilt top to bottom. Have a new motor and save $2000. Maybe I'm getting old, just cannot see an outboard being worth $4000.


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## turbotodd (Mar 20, 2014)

I work for a Yamaha dealer, so I see PLENTY of motors, almost exclusively 25hp and under.

We have sold about 300 20 hp 4 stroke motors.

We have sold about 350 2 stroke twin carb 25's, all the way up until 2008 when they were discontinued (we had some left overs in 09-10).

I have worked on I think 3 maybe 4 F20's.

The 25 2 stroke is what pays my bills. Not that it's a bad motor-I just see them broken more often. 

Demographics has a lot to do with it. Duck hunters still won't buy a F20 or even an F25, but they "say" they'll pay good money for a 2 stroke twin carb 25. Yet when I find a used one in great shape, buy it, it never brings more than $1500-$1700. But I can sell 4 stroke F20's and F25's for up to $2200 quickly. Most of the guys who bought/are buying 4 stroke are anglers. The hunters all want the 2 stroke. 

die hard 2 stroke guys love the 25esh. Great motor. But it's still 2 stroke. If you want to drown in your own smoke, mix oil & gas (and hope you don't forget) and don't mind a bit of maintenance, it's an awesome motor. If you don't mind an oil change once a year but prefer a quiet motor that RUNS when you want it to, the 4 stroke is for you.

something else to keep in mind is that manufacturers are only required to keep parts for a discontinued model for 5 years. Since the 2 stroke has been gone for that long, it's entirely possible that parts availability could be an issue sooner than the same problem would come from the F20-which is still made globally.


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## the fisherman guy (Mar 21, 2014)

Outstanding report TurboTodd, you may have well just saved me a bunch of cash and hassle. Thank you!!

Still leery about the 2 stroke, even though it is more power and less weight. Leery because it is over the Max rated horsepower than the boat is rated for. Not a big deal, but still a concern. 

Great point about the parts being discontinued.


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## DrNip (Mar 21, 2014)

I would go with a 20hp Suzuki EFI. 97 lbs and only $2690.00 delivered. 

https://www.newoutboards.com/Suzuki-20-hp-outboard-DF20AS.html

Then with the $1000 you saved apply it to a side scan fish finder or something.


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## Boat2fast (Mar 22, 2014)

I just had a 5hp Honda land on my doorstep. It needed a carb clean but was just gorgeous other than that. Just for fun I weighed the Honda and My 15hp Evinrude. The '84 Evinrude(electric) was 20lbs heavier.

I went down to the Honda dealer for a bowl gasket and was shocked at the $14 price tag. It's an odd shaped Oring...$14! 18 mile drive each way too. 

The Honda did run nice, for a single cylinder. It sold quickly for a respectable price. My 15hp Evinrude gets a little more appreciation, and it doesn't get sold.


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## Motv18 (Mar 23, 2014)

I agree with turbotodd parts in the future. I can see canada just banning 2 stroke parts period in a year or two. The if you can't beat them kill them method. Meaning one day the two stroke would break and be unrepaierable. How far away it is ??? But something to think about.


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## bcbouy (Mar 24, 2014)

i cant see a motor manufacturer keeping return customers if they cant get parts for their products.there will be used 2 stroke outboord parts for years to come. i've never had a problem finding parts for a 30 year old 9.9 evinrude. you can still get 2 stroke motors in canada,just not new 2 stroke outboards.


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## bcbouy (Mar 24, 2014)

i cant see a motor manufacturer keeping return customers if they cant get parts for their products.there will be used 2 stroke outboord parts for years to come. i've never had a problem finding parts for a 30 year old 9.9 evinrude. you can still get 2 stroke motors in canada,just not new 2 stroke outboards.


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## muddywaders (Mar 24, 2014)

Yamaha Canada will ship parts from Japan and since new 2-strokes are still sold in Asia and Australia I highly doubt they will become unavailable although prices may increase.Small 2-strokes are highly sought after where I live(British Columbia)a used 5hp yammi in good shape will go for around $1000 on craiglist-I know because Ive been looking for one for over a year now and they sell so quickly it would be great to be able to buy one new.


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## the fisherman guy (Mar 25, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies fellas. 

I have decided, after much deliberation to head the four stroke route for the following reasons:

Cleaner
Less maintenance
Starts easier
Idles better
Cheaper fuel
Cheaper purchase price
The weight difference between the two was negligible. 

For those looking for a brand new 2 stroke, there is a deler in Calgary that has a few 15 and 25 hp Yamaha's. Year is 2012, but they have never been used and are on display in the showroom. The 25 is $4000, and the 15 is $3600.


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## Boat2fast (Mar 25, 2014)

the fisherman guy said:


> For those looking for a brand new 2 stroke, there is a deler in Calgary that has a few 15 and 25 hp Yamaha's. Year is 2012, but they have never been used and are on display in the showroom. The 25 is $4000, and the 15 is $3600.


That's almost twice what they sold for while still in production.


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## turbotodd (Mar 26, 2014)

A local dealer has a few Yamaha 25 2 stroke motors. They are used, in good shape though (they look new-but they aren't). They're asking $3600 for both of them. Ridiculous. Problem is, "everyone wants the old 2 stroke"....but when it comes down to it, nobody is willing to pay anything for them. If the demand was "that" high, people would actually be buying them left and right...for good money...out here, I'm not seeing it. I picked up one yesterday. '97 Yamaha 25ESH (2 stroke twin carb) electric start, short shaft, tiller steer...$800. And picked up a 2004 or 2005 F15 4 stroke for $400. Gonna try to sell the 2 stroke as I don't want to drown in my own smoke when I start it first thing in the morning, and I'll keep the F15 for my dad's boat since it, too, is electric start. It'll replace his '86 Evinrude 9.9 which has like 2 hours run time on it. He bought it new in 1985 and never used it more than a few minutes at a time, and maybe once every 4 years or so. Looks horrible but really never gets used. Every time he wants to use it, he has to call me and I go over there to clean the carb. It's manual start and he can't pull the rope anymore, at least not fast enough to start it. He wanted to buy an electric start "kit" for it....but I got this little 4 stroke cheaper than the kit costs. And it's a newer/better/more reliable motor, even if I do have to clean the carb ever time he uses it. At least it's easier to get the carb off & clean it than the 9.9 is. That thing is a pain.

I see them listed on CL for $2000-$2500 for a used up 25ESH, but are they getting what they ask? Friend of mine put a "Mega 25" on his boat and sold his Yamaha 25, advertised it for $1800 (which theoretically should have gotten easily, especially out here in the duck hunting capital of the world where 25 hp is king)...7 months later, he let it go for $1350. Thing was clean too. SS 12" Turbo Hotshot prop went with it as part of the deal. I spent a little time in that boat and it did well. Reliable. He just wants to go faster I guess. Spends most of his free time working on the "Mega" (actually a modded Tohatsu 40 with 25 stickers).


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## Boat2fast (Mar 29, 2014)

15 Evinrude/Johnson engines are getting more and more expensive every year. In this area a good freshwater unit can go 800...1000 with electric start. These are nice running, clean engines. Even busted up ol' parts engines can bring around 100 or more. I ran across a brand new 9.9 Johnson last year. It sold for 2K, cash. Factory warranted it too for the new owner. The prices are up there. Just watch ebay bidding.

A lot of this may be money itself isn't worth as much. Selling a nice shiny outboard engine won't even fill a heating oil tank. If the price of something doubles, it could be because the money is only worth half as much. All that's okay if your income doubles too...

The whole system seems to be changing too fast to keep up with. I don't think it's improving, overall. Not a lot of people I know make twice as much as they did ten years ago. The cost of most everything seems to have way more than doubled in the same time. Why is that?


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