# conceal carry pistol



## lovedr79

looking for other ideas on concealed pistol, i have a couple in mind. looking for what others are carrying. my wife got me a concealed carry class for christmas........


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## Jim

Right now my carry piece is an S&W M&P9c. Trigger job and sites done over...what an awesome little gun.

I am hoping Santa brings some funds to allow me to buy a Ruger LCR 357 Magnum. :lol:


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## wasilvers

Ruger LC9 for me. I pocket carry most times, but have an inner waistband when I want it to really disappear. It has a really deep trigger pull, but after a few shooting trips I'm used to it, but others try to pull and think its broken. I like that because its like another safety function. I did remove the magazine disconnect safety, figured I didn't care if fires when the magazine is removed - I unload my guns every time I clean them. 
2 of the must have features in a carry gun (for me) are a loaded chamber indicator and laser sight. The chamber indicator is great to check at a glance and not have to half cycle. The laser allows me shoot accurately in near darkness and it speeds up the target aquisition time by A LOT. I can accuratly hit targets near the beginning of the draw (if needed). I will get a laser on every pistol I own.


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## wasilvers

But sometimes I think I'd like more ammo than 7 shots (like 13 or so in the flocks. I keep 2 extra mags in the car, hopefully 7 shots will buy me time to get to them, or get out of there. :shock:


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## mikejames

I carry a Springfield XD40 service (4") with Truglo fiber optic sights and a trigger job. In either a Crossbreed Supertuck or a leather holster I got on eBay for $20, both are pretty comfortable. Just get a carry belt, it will support the weight better then a cheap walmart belt. I am 5'8" 185 and have no problem concealing it under a t-shirt.


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## Bailey Boat

Call your local ranges and see if they rent guns and go try as many as possible before making the leap. Actually shooting a gun tells more than just holding one in your hand. Beware of getting more gun than what you can easily handle. Try revolvers as well as semi autos but bear in mind the reliability of each and how you would handle a malfunction when under stress.
I personally carry a K frame, 357 S&W in the summer and a Colt Defender in .45 in the winter but your mileage may vary.... Be prepared to shell out some decent coin on a GOOD belt and holster and don't skimp or use cheap crap, you'll be dissapointed......


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## Loggerhead Mike

Xd 40


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## lovedr79

I have a glock 23, a keltec .380 (wifes) I was looking at the ruger Sr40c, the public defender, and the xd40


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## TOY BOAT

I am picking up a S&W SD9 this week. Seems to be perfectly fit to conceal. Not too big. Not too small.

https://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp...4_750001_750051_757962_-1_757752_757751_image


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## bulldog

Lc9 for me. Really like it. Trigger pull takes some getting used to but it is a great gun.


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## tnriverluver

Glock 19 Thank me later


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## TOY BOAT

tnriverluver said:


> Glock 19 Thank me later


Agreed. A 9x19 9mm is one sweet pistol. Accurate, light weight, fires no matter what you do to it. I used to have one and loved it.


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## FishingCop

bulldog said:


> Lc9 for me. Really like it. Trigger pull takes some getting used to but it is a great gun.




yep


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## thudpucker

I'll have the little Beretta Belly gun in .22 long Rifle.
Nothing to snag your sights on, and double action Semi-auto.


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## lovedr79

I have a glock 23, too big. I think I am getting the beretta Px4 in 9mm subcompact


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## Rjennings

Glock 23 or 19, and now i have a XD 9MM sub compact, it seems like its a wee bit heavier than the glocks.


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## lovedr79

Well I came across a deal on a beretta and then it got even sweeter when my buddy informed me his childhood friend is a dealer in pa he is hooking me up. So berreta storm subcompact 9mm it is. It is a sweet little gun.


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## lovedr79

buying something this weekend. i have changed my mind after some shopping and reivews. really likeing the LC9, i have several rugers in my collection and think one more may be added.


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## Rjennings

I just put a Ruger SR9C on layaway!! They are really nice, also looked at some of the Bersa pistols, they are good lookin guns..lovedr, look at a Bersa BPCC they are nice.


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## lovedr79

I do like the Sr9, just a little big for carry. No bersa for me seen too many with problems.


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## Fishin-joe

Several suggestions:

S&W Airweight 357 - weighs only 11oz without ammo revolver - Titanium frame

Ruger LCP 380 great pocket pistol semi auto - Polymer 

Glock model 27 40 cal sub compact semi auto - Polymer

Phoenix Arms 22 LR semi auto - Stainless

Depending on the wardrobe is what I carry.


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## lovedr79

Joe, I ended up getting a kahr cw9. I love it! Sweet little gun.


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## ecirb_88

man have you held a M&P shield ?? they are so sweet! the shoot nice too! shot one this weekend  keep it in mind man.


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## BrazosDon

My favorate is the .45ACP because they don't make a .46cal. I have the Colt Defender which is very light weight, a lot lighter than a PO. I have it to use when the PO are only minutes away when there are only seconds to spare. Locked and cocked. Nuff said.

PS: SS so I can take it fishing.


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## lovedr79

Bought the kahr cw9 I love it. And yes stainless.


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## 1436delta

Taurus PT840 40S&W :USA1:


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## johnnybassboat

XDs for me 45 acp dont kick as bad as I thought it would.


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## h21ighlander

Taurus bought Beretta molds year ago... I carry the Millenium 111 in 9 mm, and have the PT911 (9 mm) at home (slightly larger frame). Both handle well and after a little fine tuning by a master gunsmith, are like silk!


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## Smells Fishy

Ruger LCP 380 is an awesome pocket pistol. I have a pocket holster i carry mine in and it's the same as if you had your wallet in your front pocket. I do alot of bending, squatting with my job and this gun worked the best with it.


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## lovedr79

i do have a keltec .380, not a bad little gun once i got the kinks worked out. i do carry it in my pocket if i am somewhere that i cant wear inside the waist or clothing keeps from me from carrying my kahr


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## CountryRN

Its a little on the large size for most people but I carry a Glock 21. The compact guns do not fit my hands well, and I am able to conceal the frame well in my waste band. Nothing better for peace of mind than 13+ 1 of 45 ACP.


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## Popeye

A little late to the party but I carry (when legal to do so) a Ruger SR9c. Looking for a nice little dresser drawer gun for the house like either an .357 LCR or 380 LCP. I have a Kel-Tec Sub2000 and with the issues I've have with their QC, would never depend on one of their guns in a SD/HD situation. Your mileage may vary of course.


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## Abraham

Glock 19 in one of the small plastic Glock holsters on my right kidney unless I'm at work and then it's in my cargo pants side pocket. The OWB will show somewhat if my shirt isn't oversized but I just figure that people can just wonder what's under there.


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## stevesecotec02

I carry a Bersa ultra compact pro 45 around town....on the boat and in the woods its a ruger blackhawk 41mag.


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## cgaengineer

Bailey Boat said:


> Call your local ranges and see if they rent guns and go try as many as possible before making the leap. Actually shooting a gun tells more than just holding one in your hand. Beware of getting more gun than what you can easily handle. Try revolvers as well as semi autos but bear in mind the reliability of each and how you would handle a malfunction when under stress.
> I personally carry a K frame, 357 S&W in the summer and a Colt Defender in .45 in the winter but your mileage may vary.... Be prepared to shell out some decent coin on a GOOD belt and holster and don't skimp or use cheap crap, you'll be dissapointed......



This...

That being said, G19 winter carry and a DB380 in the summer is what I use.


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## simbelle

Use to carry a Kimber Ultra Carry 2 (45 cal.) with crimson trace and night sights, but always felt uneasy about carrying cocked and locked; Now just carry a S&W Model 642 Deluxe 1-7/8in. Textured Wood Grips, 38 ultalight...hardly know there.


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## Doneaster

I carry a Ruger LCP, it's a great little gun and in a pocket holster it's concealed so completely that no one knows when I'm carrying it, and it is so lite that it's a pleasure to carry. It does take some practice getting used to the double action trigger and if you have very large hands this is not the gun for you, but for close range self defense type protection it will get the job done.


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## Swampfox88

Sig Sauer P250 compact for me. Hope I never need to use it, but im ready.


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## cgaengineer

Swampfox88 said:


> Sig Sauer P250 compact for me. Hope I never need to use it, but im ready.



Have you looked at the Sig P238? I want one badly!


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## cgaengineer

Doneaster said:


> I carry a Ruger LCP, it's a great little gun and in a pocket holster it's concealed so completely that no one knows when I'm carrying it, and it is so lite that it's a pleasure to carry. It does take some practice getting used to the double action trigger and if you have very large hands this is not the gun for you, but for close range self defense type protection it will get the job done.



That's like my DB380, very light and compact...crap trigger, but it goes bang when pulled which is all I care about.


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## VC-Racing

I'm new here but I alternate depending on my wardrobe. I either carry a G23 w/ night sights (shorts/jeans) and 2 spare 15rd mags or a Kimber Crimson Ultra Carry II w/ night sights (dress clothes) and 3 spare 7rd mags . All my weapons are carried in Condition 1 ( round chambered and ready to fire) . 
My BUG is a ankle holstered S&W 640 J-frame unless I'm wearing shorts. 

Some mentioned nightstand gun. Mine is what ever I carrying that day. 


YMMV 


Vic


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## ohiolunker

Started with a bersa thunder 380, but the design printed pretty bad. Switched up to a Kahr CW40 and couldn't be happier. Super thin, lightweight, and you get the ballistics of a 40. win-win-win in my book. Fairly easy on the wallet too.


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## just_fishing

I carry a Taurus 41 mag with the 2.5 inch barrel. Love a wheel gun for CCW.


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## Buddychrist

Smith and Wesson 5906 9mm para here. It's heavy but if you run out of ammo the steel frame is a useful bludgeon. The only reason I don't mind the weight is no matter what that pistol will fire when you squeeze the trigger.


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## nicktheww2fanatic

I carry every day, most days its a 5" Dan Wesson Valor, sometimes its a 4" S&W 686+.

Weight isn't a big deal as long as you get a good belt (Most important, get one that is designed for carrying a gun), and a good holster (Don't skimp, look at the Milt Sparks VMII for IWB Carry).


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## icepounder

If I could carry here it would be my Sig P228.


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## lcdr frank

I cc a SIG 938. 300 rounds an d ZERO problems. Just like a mini 1911. I also got a new SCCY CPX2. 9mm. Best dame gun for the price on the market right now. Wife has a 8 shot Charter Arms 22 LR.


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## dementia

I carry different guns depending on what I am wearing , mostly a Ruger SR 1911 commander, sw638, Glock 30, Ruger lc9


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## lovedr79

Lately I have been carrying my wife's keltec .380


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## Cashew

Ruger LC9, pocket carry most of the time. Buddy has SR9 it's nice but too much for carry, sadly gets left home.


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## KMixson

[url=https://forum.tinboats.net/viewtopic.php?p=367141#p367141 said:


> Cashew » Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:37 pm[/url]"]Ruger LC9, pocket carry most of the time. Buddy has SR9 it's nice but too much for carry, sadly gets left home.




That happens a lot. People buy a big gun to carry then don't carry it because it is too big. Not against big guns, just make sure you also have something you can carry wearing a pair of shorts and a tee shirt. If I am bundled up for winter a large .357 revolver will work. If it is 95 degrees in the shade a Ruger LCP is just fine.


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## onthewater102

My issue is work clothing - can't wear shirt & tie and have a big lump protruding. I used to carry a Kahr MK9 which was an exceptional little gun - but I found my H&K P7 fits my ankle holster as well as IWB and was only marginally longer in the grip and barrel. After seeing the MK9 sitting just collecting dust for a while I sold it & carry the P7. The Kahr had an excellent trigger, far better than the glock 27 I had before it - it just couldn't compete with the P7.


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## onthewater102

Of course if I could have my way I'd carry my HK P9S, but it's got a threaded barrel and now here in CT that makes it a scary and extra dangerous "assault weapon," which can only be transported unloaded with its certificate - makes concealed carry with it a non-option. 

Having to file a form with the state to restrict my use of a piece of property, which I owned legally already, to avoid being a felon (and losing my license for work) was one of the most ridiculous examples of collective stupidity on the part of the people of this state and the half-wit knee-jerk legislators they elected. All so they can tout that they did "something" in the wake of Sandy Hook, even though it amounts to nothing but a hassle for decent people in the end. The cowards wouldn't touch the issue of mental health - that involves restricting the rights of people without the ability enjoy their rights responsibly, and that is politically bad -> but they used opportunity to further their own agendas of restricting gun ownership while that was politically feasible...


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## dementia

onthewater102 said:


> Of course if I could have my way I'd carry my HK P9S, but it's got a threaded barrel and now here in CT that makes it a scary and extra dangerous "assault weapon," which can only be transported unloaded with its certificate - makes concealed carry with it a non-option.
> 
> Having to file a form with the state to restrict my use of a piece of property, which I owned legally already, to avoid being a felon (and losing my license for work) was one of the most ridiculous examples of collective stupidity on the part of the people of this state and the half-wit knee-jerk legislators they elected. All so they can tout that they did "something" in the wake of Sandy Hook, even though it amounts to nothing but a hassle for decent people in the end. The cowards wouldn't touch the issue of mental health - that involves restricting the rights of people without the ability enjoy their rights responsibly, and that is politically bad -> but they used opportunity to further their own agendas of restricting gun ownership while that was politically feasible...


I feel for ya, we lost a lot in the last election here I'm Wa too, libs are getting the uneducated to vote for this stupid stuff that won't do any good


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## breachless

A little late to the party, but I love my little Walther PPS .40. Not nearly as much fun to shoot as my full size PPQ, but it shoots really well, conceals really well IWB (I primarily use a CompTac Minotaur), and is light enough to toss in a Remora holster in my gym shorts for when I go running or biking. If I use the smallest mag, it practically disappears. All of these things help me feel comfortable carrying and thus, I carry it SO much more often than I ever did when I just had a full size pistol.

For a size comparison, they are about like the M&P Shield: nice little single-stack semi auto pistol. On a side note, while I LOVE my Walther, some people have issues with the German/HK-style mag release built into the trigger guard. I love it, but a lot of people struggle with it because it's not what they are used to. Also, the Shield is better value for your money in my opinion. I like the Walther more, but it is a bit more expensive, and having shot both quite a bit, I struggle to see what warrants the extra cost. 

I love gun talk...


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## DaleH

Ruger LC9 w/ laser sight does it for me. Can't beat the laser for a self-defense pistol. For a Summer wear, it is the S&W 380 Bodyguard, also w/ laser.

The original LC9s had long, lOnG, LoNG, LONG trigger pulls, but the latest striker-fired LC9s fixed that. Still, I have shot 2" groups w/ mine early LC9 at 50', so she's surely capable.


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## onthewater102

Yeah - I was torn between that sweet little LC9s and the Solo...ended up going with the Solo b/c it's the same size as the LCP other than the slide thickness, so on my ankle it doesn't print at all.

The difference between the two LC9's (striker non-striker) is insane. I doubt Ruger sells many DAO LC9's anymore they really outdid themselves.


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## duckfish

M&P Shield .40 cal. Next purchase is going to be a Kimber CDP II with Crimson Trace grips


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## Cali Duck

I like the Ruger LC9S Pro - but the Glock 43 is really tempting...if you can find one


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## RiverBottomOutdoors

Glock 27 with standard mag. Little wide, but not that bad. I open carry a lot more than conceal.


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## poolie

I'm a little late to the party too, but for the summer months I carry a M&P Shield 9mm with Hiviz sights and Apex trigger kit. Small enough to carry with shorts and tee shirt but big enough to be accurate at 10 yards. In cooler months I have the Shield's bigger sister the M&P 9c. It shoots no better than the Shield but I like the feel of the thicker grip.


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## paper

Cali Duck said:


> I like the Ruger LC9S Pro - but the Glock 43 is really tempting...if you can find one



They're getting more plentiful. Cope's Distributing has them for $459.. https://www.copesdistributing.com/glock-compact-slimline-pistol-p-8819.html 
I've had my 43 for a month now and absolutely LOVE IT.. Accurate, thin, light, and it's a Glock.. I've put about 400 rounds through it with not so much as a hickup.. 

I have a nice Kydex IWB holster for carrying, and I just put grip tape on it (got it from eBay) and it made it even better!! The gun didn't move around in my hands much without the tape, but now it's rock solid.. I had a LCP and I had to regrip the little bugger after every shot. 

If you get a chance to shoot one, you'll end up buying it.. :lol:

Before grip tape..


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## jggassert

paper said:


> Cali Duck said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like the Ruger LC9S Pro - but the Glock 43 is really tempting...if you can find one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They're getting more plentiful. Cope's Distributing has them for $459.. https://www.copesdistributing.com/glock-compact-slimline-pistol-p-8819.html
> I've had my 43 for a month now and absolutely LOVE IT.. Accurate, thin, light, and it's a Glock.. I've put about 400 rounds through it with not so much as a hickup..
> 
> I have a nice Kydex IWB holster for carrying, and I just put grip tape on it (got it from eBay) and it made it even better!! The gun didn't move around in my hands much without the tape, but now it's rock solid.. I had a LCP and I had to regrip the little bugger after every shot.
> 
> If you get a chance to shoot one, you'll end up buying it.. :lol:
> 
> Before grip tape..
Click to expand...


I love my G43. It's my EDC for these warm months. Carry with either my Desantis Cozy Partner or sticky holster when I don't feel like wearing a belt. This was my first Glock and with talon grips it's perfect...my only complaint is the mag sticks sometimes if the angle isn't just right. (Yeah yeah I know, that's what she said).


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## PSG-1

My EDC pistol is a NAA mini revolver in 22 magnum. True, it's not going to stop a bad guy like my Glock 20 10mm, but the first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun, and the NAA revolver is small enough, it's something I am more likely to carry than leave at home.


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## onthewater102

I've yet to meet someone who would volunteer to be shot with one


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## PSG-1

onthewater102 said:


> I've yet to meet someone who would volunteer to be shot with one



:mrgreen: :LOL2: 

I guarantee if they did, they would sit their butt on the curb and wait for the ambulance to arrive. Any hole in their body other than the ones they were born with, is going to slow them down, for sure.


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## paper

Sorry, but if I have to pull my handgun in self defense I want there to be only one report to the police. I will fire until the threat is most assuradly and completely stopped. I consider 9mm HP's the absolute minimum I will use for this duty. 

I know it's not fun or funny, but it's a fact.


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## Johnny

I sold my S&W 5906 9mm a few years ago with the intent to get a
Walther PPK-9mm. Anyone carry one of these ?
or know the pros/cons of the Walther .380 vs the 9mm?
I have small hands so the big Glocks are a bit clumsy for me.
I qualified "Expert Marksman" at my local F.O.P. range a few years back with my 5906
but haven't done any serious shooting in several years.
I have had the CC permit for GA and FL since 1990.


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## KMixson

PSG-1 said:


> My EDC pistol is a NAA mini revolver in 22 magnum. True, it's not going to stop a bad guy like my Glock 20 10mm, but the first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun, and the NAA revolver is small enough, it's something I am more likely to carry than leave at home.



Also, A hit with a .22 counts much more than a miss with a .45 in a gunfight.


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## alexanderapearce

Beratta PX4 Storm 40cal.


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## PSG-1

KMixson said:


> PSG-1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My EDC pistol is a NAA mini revolver in 22 magnum. True, it's not going to stop a bad guy like my Glock 20 10mm, but the first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun, and the NAA revolver is small enough, it's something I am more likely to carry than leave at home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, A hit with a .22 counts much more than a miss with a .45 in a gunfight.
Click to expand...


Absolutely! As we used to say in PPC and IPSC competition..."you can't miss fast enough" 

That being said, in addition to being an NRA certified handgun instructor, a few years back, I used to do a lot of shooting in the expert division of many pistol matches, with several wins, using all kinds of handguns ranging from a Colt Mustang Pocketlite 380, to a 50AE Desert Eagle. 

My favorite caliber, though, has to be the 10mm Auto. Great round for bowling pin matches. Those pins don't stand a chance against a round that has more energy at 100 yards than a 45 ACP has at the muzzle. :mrgreen:


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## satx78247

Friends,

I was "pinned to" a state/federal badge for nearly 3 decades & my advice & MY CHOICE for concealed carry is a "D-Frame" Colt or "J" or "K" frame S&W revolver in .38SPL. = My reasoning is that a civilian or retired peace officer (like me, for example) needs NO more than 5-6 shots for SELF-DEFENSE, IF you can shoot a handgun competently.
(Fwiw, when I was actively pursuing armed criminals OCONUS, I frequently carried a PAIR of Browning 14 shot High-Power 9mm SA pistols. - Now that I'm retired, I do NOT have "to stay and fight", so my treasured Browning HPs are "in the safe".)

My PERSONAL carry weapon (which I have available 24/365) is a K-frame S&W Model 12 "snub-nose" revolver that weighs about ONE POUND, loaded with 6 Hornady Critical Defense .38SPL rounds.

Another piece of advice: Go read & heed the advice of a former female USSS agent on: https://www.corneredcat.com = She has armed self-defense "just about right", imVho.
(I'm a "cornered cat" & my response to a deadly situation is to BITE, SCRATCH & LEAVE the area.)

just my OPINIONS, satx


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## Cali Duck

satx78247 said:


> Friends,
> 
> I was "pinned to" a state/federal badge for nearly 3 decades & my advice & MY CHOICE for concealed carry is a "D-Frame" Colt or "J" or "K" frame S&W revolver in .38SPL. = My reasoning is that a civilian or retired peace officer (like me, for example) needs NO more than 5-6 shots for SELF-DEFENSE, IF you can shoot a handgun competently.
> (Fwiw, when I was actively pursuing armed criminals OCONUS, I frequently carried a PAIR of Browning 14 shot High-Power 9mm SA pistols. - Now that I'm retired, I do NOT have "to stay and fight", so my treasured Browning HPs are "in the safe".)
> 
> My PERSONAL carry weapon (which I have available 24/365) is a K-frame S&W Model 12 "snub-nose" revolver that weighs about ONE POUND, loaded with 6 Hornady Critical Defense .38SPL rounds.
> 
> Another piece of advice: Go read & heed the advice of a former female USSS agent on: https://www.corneredcat.com = She has armed self-defense "just about right", imVho.
> (I'm a "cornered cat" & my response to a deadly situation is to BITE, SCRATCH & LEAVE the area.)
> 
> just my OPINIONS, satx



Any carry is better than no carry...but I prefer a semi-auto. It's all preference, but you can reload faster and I'm more accurate with them with quicker follow ups.


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## satx78247

Cali Duck,

The VAST majority of people (including most LEO!) don't shoot a semi-auto well (They rely on 'the spray & pray" technique, rather than well-aimed fire.) & MOST halfway competent shooters do much better with a revolver. = That's why the NYPD, for over 100 years, issued nothing but Colt's & S&W revolvers in .38SPL.
(Your mileage may vary.)

Also, consider that MOST gun-fights (about 75% of gunfights, where shots are actually fired,) end with 1 or 2 shots fired. Thus "quick reloading" is unnecessary.

just my OPINION, satx


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## GTS225

Gotta agree with Satx on this, boys. If you can't hit your target in the first 2-3 rounds fired, maybe you shouldn't be carrying.

His statements about revolver carry are just as good. A revolver has so many fewer moving parts compared to an auto-loader, and will most likely fire, even if you have to pull it out of a mudhole.
Just my 1/2 pence.

Roger


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## KMixson

I agree to a point. If you can't hit your target with consistency you should go get more practice. You may think you are good shot but in a stressful situation you may lose your accuracy. A revolver may be more accurate to you than a semi or vise versa but you still need to practice. Just because you saw a TV show on how to shoot does not make you an expert marksman. You have to practice with your weapon of choice. For example, If I want to carry a Glock 19 I need to practice with my Glock 19 and not my friends Glock 19. Every gun has its own little quirks that you have to account for. Your gun may fire a quarter of an inch to left while your friends gun may fire a quarter of an inch to the right. You also have to practice with the ammo you plan to use. One ammo may kick a little harder than another surprising you when you fire that first round in self defense. I do think revolvers are a very reliable option. I am not saying they are bulletproof but they do not malfunction near as much as a semi will.


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## Cali Duck

To each their own! I take self defense pistol courses annually and train with friends who shoot a lot. We go through 200-300 rounds of handgun ammo each outing.

I wouldn't trade my Glock for a revolver. I know my glock, I trust my glock, I'm accurate with my glock. Under pressure remains to be seen, but I consider myself more prepared than the average Joe.


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## satx78247

Cali Duck,

Fwiw, I was an Army Range Safety Officer & Master Handgun Instructor for nearly 20 years. I wouldn't own a Glock if they were paying me (as the factory DID to get plastic Glocks into German police holsters years ago) to bet my life on one & regard that handgun as flawed/unsafe.
(In case you don't know, Glock GAVE a pair of their 9mm SA handguns to each Texas Ranger, including our living retirees. = You haven't heard about that as 100% of those handguns were returned to the US distributer, as our Rangers wouldn't keep them for FREE.)

You might also consider that when DC Metro PD started issuing Glocks to their patrol officers, they had more than TEN accidental discharges reported in the first 2 weeks. One wonders how many AD occurred but were NOT officially reported??
(Glock blamed those incidents on the HOLSTERS.)

just my OPINIONS, satx


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## onthewater102

The "problem" with Glocks is the users not having safe handling/cleaning habits which are exacerbated by the gun's reliance on spring engaged mechanical safeties. 

I'm not a fan, I sold my G27 as it was too wide for concealment in business attire, but the plastic trigger "safety" is a joke, it might as well not be there because if you're dumb enough to put a finger on the trigger you've already defeated the only safety on it. I would bet money that those accidental discharges were all from people setting off their own guns and too ashamed to man up and admit their mistake.

As far as the firing pin safety, this too doesn't serve the most dangerous of gun owners, people who are too ignorant to keep their finger off the trigger are probably too lazy to clean their guns. It doesn't take much grime to block up that little safety piston so that it doesn't return to its pin-blocking position after firing.

In the hands of someone responsible they're excellent - but they're completely inferior to the new SIG P320 line.


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## satx78247

onthewater102,

UNFORTUNATELY, at least 5 of the UN-intentional discharges suffered by the DC Metro Police occurred while the Glocks were NEWLY-issued & within the holsters. 

In 2 of those 5 cases, the officer was shot in the leg while getting into or out of the patrol car & without their hand being near to the handgun. = ImVho, it's a dangerously flawed design & patently UNSAFE except under the best conditions & in the hands of a VERY capable & well-trained person.

yours, satx


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## onthewater102

Believe what you want, I believe people make mistakes and lie to cover them up to avoid embarrassment.


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## poolie

I'm always amused a little when I read where people feel like they need 15 rounds in the pistol and two or three extra magazines... these people must live in a war zone. Personally if I were to find myself in a situation where the 7 rounds in my S&W Shield wasn't enough, I'm probably scr***d anyway.




satx78247 said:


> Friends,
> 
> I was "pinned to" a state/federal badge for nearly 3 decades & my advice & MY CHOICE for concealed carry is a "D-Frame" Colt or "J" or "K" frame S&W revolver in .38SPL. = My reasoning is that a civilian or retired peace officer (like me, for example) needs NO more than 5-6 shots for SELF-DEFENSE, IF you can shoot a handgun competently.
> (Fwiw, when I was actively pursuing armed criminals OCONUS, I frequently carried a PAIR of Browning 14 shot High-Power 9mm SA pistols. - Now that I'm retired, I do NOT have "to stay and fight", so my treasured Browning HPs are "in the safe".)
> 
> My PERSONAL carry weapon (which I have available 24/365) is a K-frame S&W Model 12 "snub-nose" revolver that weighs about ONE POUND, loaded with 6 Hornady Critical Defense .38SPL rounds.
> 
> Another piece of advice: Go read & heed the advice of a former female USSS agent on: https://www.corneredcat.com = She has armed self-defense "just about right", imVho.
> (I'm a "cornered cat" & my response to a deadly situation is to BITE, SCRATCH & LEAVE the area.)
> 
> just my OPINIONS, satx


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## satx78247

outonthewater102,

You are perfectly FREE to believe that the US Park Police, who did the "after shooting incidents" investigation LIED to cover-up for the Metro PD, given that the USPP has "considerable antipathy for" DC Metro.
(The DC Inspector General's Office insisted that an outside agency do the investigation.)

As a result of that outside investigation, the USPP ended up buying H&K P7M13 & P7M8 (and a handful of P7M13SD pistols for the Tactical Unit.) semi-autos at more than 2X the price for holsters & leather gear.

yours, satx


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## satx78247

poolie,

AGREED. - I've believed for a long time that IF 5-8 shots, of .38SPL/9mm (or more powerful handgun ammo), isn't enough for resolving an armed confrontation, that it's a job for a riot-gun or a patrol rifle with a long magazine AND back-up units.
(Such a confrontation is called: a fire-fight.)

yours, satx


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## onthewater102

satx78247 said:


> outonthewater102,
> 
> You are perfectly FREE to believe that the US Park Police, who did the "after shooting incidents" investigation LIED to cover-up for the Metro PD, given that the USPP has "considerable antipathy for" DC Metro.
> (The DC Inspector General's Office insisted that an outside agency do the investigation.)
> 
> As a result of that outside investigation, the USPP ended up buying H&K P7M13 & P7M8 (and a handful of P7M13SD pistols for the Tactical Unit.) semi-autos at more than 2X the price for holsters & leather gear.
> 
> yours, satx



Wait, so you're judging an entire line of guns based on an incident that happened 30 years ago when they just hit the market? Were these prototypes? Were they early production that then had redesign? Or were they likely just humans who screwed up and couldn't man up and admit it.


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## satx78247

onthewater123,

NOPE. NOT prototypes. Just regular model 17, 9mm pistols in new condition, issued with new police duty-type holsters, supplied by Safariland.
(According to the Mayor's Office and the official report of the DC Inspector General's Office, EVERY officer who was issued a 9mm Glock was "fully trained to Metropolitan Police Department Standards" before those handguns were issued for routine use. - I have NO idea what "fully trained" meant, as the DC government signed a "non-disclosure agreement", according to THE WASHINGTON TIMES, to NOT inform the public on the financial settlement on behalf of the injured police officers, with "Glock corporate management".)

A simple YES/NO answer please: Do you actually believe that the "shooting incident investigators" of the US Park Police LIED to "cover-up for" the DC Metro Police, given their intense antipathy for that LE agency?

Tell me: How many incidents that cause wounding of LEO do you need to figure out that Glock pistols are a FLAWED DESIGN that are safe ONLY in the hands of VERY well-trained persons BUT are inherently dangerous for routine use/carry by ordinary peace officers and the general public??

yours, satx


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## onthewater102

WELL lets see, one person LIES to the other, and no-one can actually PROVE one way or the other what happened BECAUSE all you have for evidence is a guy with a hole in his leg and a gun that has been issued to TENS OF THOUSANDS of police officers across the country.

Here's what I think happened, guy had the gun out, goes to holster it but catches the trigger with his finger, bang, boo-boo, 'oh-no, I look like an ass for shooting myself, it must be the guns fault'

Now, if you're saying the only external safety being a floppy little piece of plastic in the middle of the trigger is a flawed design I'll agree to disagree. It's a piss poor design, but it is functional - but easily defeated by everyday lack of concentration.


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## Cali Duck

Name one LE agency that DOESN'T issue glocks...I bet you'll be pressed to find one that doesn't allow its agents to carry Glock.

I'd bet my life on my Glock 19 just as I would my 870. They both go bang - everytime. Any malfunction or someone discharging...has their finger on the trigger, because that is your safety - your trigger finger.


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## satx78247

Cali Duck,

OK.

THE US PARK POLICE,
THE FBI,
THE US MARSHAL'S SERVICE,
DCIS, USACIDC, NCIS, AFOSI & USCGIS,
US ICE,
TEXAS RANGERS,
TEXAS HIGHWAY PATROL & the rest of the TX DPS,
NJ STATE POLICE,
OK STATE POLICE & OSBI
and
SAN ANTONIO POLICE DEPT

That's TEN, just off the top of my head.

How many more would you like?

Note: About 10 years ago, my old agency decided that based on our worldwide mission, the fact that we now have so many women (who generally have smaller hands) in the force & we wanted ONE handgun/type of ammo for all of our personnel, we got permission to buy essentially any handgun that was then available. - USACIDC, after nearly 3 years of testing, chose the SIG-SAUER 226 for everyone.

yours, satx


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## Cali Duck

satx78247 said:


> Cali Duck,
> 
> OK.
> 
> THE US PARK POLICE,
> THE FBI,
> THE US MARSHAL'S SERVICE,
> DCIS, USACIDC, NCIS, AFOSI & USCGIS,
> US ICE,
> TEXAS RANGERS,
> TEXAS HIGHWAY PATROL & the rest of the TX DPS,
> NJ STATE POLICE,
> OK STATE POLICE & OSBI
> and
> SAN ANTONIO POLICE DEPT
> 
> That's TEN, just off the top of my head.
> 
> How many more would you like?
> 
> Note: About 10 years ago, my old agency decided that based on our worldwide mission, the fact that we now have so many women (who generally have smaller hands) in the force & we wanted ONE handgun/type of ammo for all of our personnel, we got permission to buy essentially any handgun that was then available. - USACIDC, after nearly 3 years of testing, chose the SIG-SAUER 226 for everyone.
> 
> yours, satx




I question the accuracy of your list, because I know for a fact - the FBI and US Marshall's Office can carry Glock.

Not to mention the DEA and ATF...

Related article:

https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/department-of-justice-glocks/#glock-22-gen4-1

Regardless what anyone says/thinks, my opinion stands that Glocks are dependable, rugged, accurate and light weight. There will always be doubters of any handgun...like me and revolvers.


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## satx78247

CaliDuck,

You're welcome to question anything that you like BUT both USMS & FBI "issue weapon" is NOT a Glock, though many federal officers MAY purchase & carry their own firearms. = At one time in my old agency, privately-purchased "Arman Swenson-IZED" Colt's Government Models & Gold Cups in .45ACP or .38Super were quite common in senior agent's holsters.
(As I said, I used to carry a pair of Browning, 1960s-era, High Powers when OCONUS, when a SSA. = I paid for them myself & I was far from alone in "carrying personal arms". - Also, for nearly 2 decades, I carried a double-barrel 12 gauge "sawed off" Fox BE, loaded with #1 Buck in my vehicle. That wasn't "government issue", either.)

yours, satx


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## PSG-1

Not to start a pissing match, but....... here in SC, most all of our law enforcement agencies, including DNR, DHEC, Highway Patrol, numerous sheriff's departments and city PD's carry Glocks.

I've shot a Glock 17, and a Glock 20 in PPC, IPSC and IDPA matches, thousands of rounds fired....and never had any problems with them going off, nor any of the other pistols I shot in competition. Adherence to firearms safety rule #1 and #2 is the reason why. 

Modern pistols, including Glocks, have drop safeties, as well as firing pin block safeties. This means that the weapon CAN NOT fire a round *unless the finger is on the trigger*. I think you'll find that most "accidental discharges" are in fact "negligent discharges" In cases where there truly is a mechanical malfunction, it is often the result of improper maintenance of the firearm.


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## Cali Duck

PSG-1 said:


> Not to start a pissing match, but....... here in SC, most all of our law enforcement agencies, including DNR, DHEC, Highway Patrol, numerous sheriff's departments and city PD's carry Glocks.
> 
> I've shot a Glock 17, and a Glock 20 in PPC, IPSC and IDPA matches, thousands of rounds fired....and never had any problems with them going off, nor any of the other pistols I shot in competition. Adherence to firearms safety rule #1 and #2 is the reason why.
> 
> Modern pistols, including Glocks, have drop safeties, as well as firing pin block safeties. This means that the weapon CAN NOT fire a round *unless the finger is on the trigger*. I think you'll find that most "accidental discharges" are in fact "negligent discharges" In cases where there truly is a mechanical malfunction, it is often the result of improper maintenance of the firearm.



This, right here.

Sorry, SATX, you're dating yourself. Appreciate all you've done though, no doubt you've seen more SHTF than I will ever see.


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## satx78247

Cali Duck,

When you're 68YY, it's HARD to NOT "date" oneself. ====> OTOH, to quote President Ronald Reagan, "I refuse to make sport of you because of your callow youth & inexperience".
(CHUCKLE)

Nonetheless for 90+% of civilians for ARMED SELF-DEFENSE, I believe that those people would be much better served with a 5-6 shot revolver, as most shooters shoot BETTER with a .38SPL Colt, Ruger or S&W.

In 1991, the management of the DOD (the DoD's large installation uniformed security force) Police did a study on "duty weapons for new police recruits" & found that well over 80% of persons, who had NOT previously fired a handgun, learned enough to qualify for law-enforcement duties with (of all things!!) a 4" barreled S&W Model 65 in .357MAG.

yours, satx


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## PSG-1

Never tried to date myself....I imagine 'that side' of me is probably a mean b!+ch anyhow!! :LOL2: :LOL2: :mrgreen: 

All kidding aside, the reason people do better with a revolver is because its limited capacity stresses marksmanship, making every hit count. Whereas a large-capacity handgun tends to encourage 'spray and pray' since it can shoot faster, reload faster, and hold more ammo. 

If you go back through all police shooting statistics over the years, you'll see that in the old days when police carried S&W model 66's as their sidearm, they were pretty decent marksmen, kinda like when our soldiers carried Garands or M-14's instead of M-4's. Back then, most police shootings only involved a couple of rounds fired, just as back in the old days, the 'standard engagement range' in combat was a lot further than 300 yards. 

Now with high capacity pistols, you hear of police shootings that involve as many as 10, 15, 20....or in the case of the deaf guy in NYC who reached for his wallet.....41 shots. Or the North Hollywood shootout. One head shot to each bad guy, taken from behind a well-concealed position, would have immediately put down that threat. 

There is no reason it should have gone on for 45 minutes, other than piss-poor marksmanship. It's just fortunate that the perps were just as lousy at their marksmanship skills, as no one was killed, despite the several hundred rounds they sprayed with their automatic weapons. I think those 2 scumbags went to the allahu akbar school of marksmanship, where the slogan is "who needs accuracy when you have ammo?"


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## onthewater102

I'm not going to put the blame on the lousy marksmanship of the officers...they'd be just as good with their semi-auto's as they were with their old wheel guns if our city and town budgets allowed for them to fire 1/10th the number of practice rounds they used to be required to fire. Top that off with all the sissy piss pots who cry that the police are out using the shooting range and all the noise it makes you have a culture that develops police who are better trained on political correctness dealing with a scumbag no matter what color the piece of sh!t wears on their skin than they are to use their duty weapon.


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## PSG-1

"Top that off with all the sissy piss pots who cry that the police are out using the shooting range and all the noise it makes you have a culture that develops police who are better trained on political correctness dealing with a scumbag no matter what color the piece of sh!t wears on their skin than they are to use their duty weapon"

Indeed. Marksmanship, both police and civilian, is a dying sport in this country. Due to urban sprawl, as well as the outcries from the granola munchers/enviro-nazis about lead..... many firing ranges have now been replaced with more politically correct driving ranges or golf courses.


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## satx78247

PSG-1 & All,

When I was stationed in the metropolitan DC area some years ago, a group of three deputy sheriffs & an officer from a small town got into "a running gun battle" with 2 thugs on a rural road, on a nearby farm & in/out of a suburban neighborhood, that lasted over an hour.
(Most, or perhaps none, of you have ever heard about this particular fiasco, as the whole thing was "hushed up" by request of the county/state government. = THE WASHINGTON TIMES published exactly 4 lines "on a back page" about the incident. THE WASHINGTON POST, THE WASHINGTON ENQUIRER & THE BALTIMORE SUN said exactly NOTHING about the incident.)

Based on an "after-action report" by a State police agency, the following was the result of the "gun battle":
1. Five houses were damaged,
2. Eight parked cars were hit,
(One of the police vehicles was "moderately damaged".)
3. A stray dog in an alley was shot/killed by accident,
4. One traffic light was damaged
5. One "above ground swimming pool" was damaged,
6. At least 120 & perhaps as many as 200 rounds of combined pistol, rifle & shotgun rounds were fired by the five "participants" in "the Wild West shoot-out",
7. NO civilians (Thankfully!) were struck by a bullet in the melee,
8. One of the deputies was hit & "lightly wounded" by 2 buckshot
(As far as I know, it was never determined who actually shot the officer by accident, though it is highly likely that it was another deputy who shot him. - Neither thug is thought to have had access to a shotgun.)
and
9. The two thugs escaped.
(The thugs were captured in Henrico County, VA the next day.)

Very quickly, the city/county government "quietly paid for" the damages to the private property that was damaged, as everyone "in government" wanted the "incident" to "just go away".

yours, satx


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## PSG-1

Satx, you've brought up another good point about concealed carry....and that is the liability that comes with any shots fired anywhere except on a designated shooting range. Just like a police officer, a civilian is responsible for each and every shot they take, and any injury, death, or collateral damage it causes. Carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility.

However, unlike a police officer, a civilian does not enjoy the level of protection from civil liability known as "qualified immunity" This means that regardless whether it was a justifiable shooting or not, a civilian is going to have to assume any legal expenses incurred as a result of lawsuits for property damage, or suits from the family of the perp (or "victim" as the PC crowd would define him) A police department will defend their officer's actions, as long as it is determined he was acting within the course of his duties in a lawful manner. But if the officer's actions were not justifiable, indeed, he's on his own, qualified immunity does not apply.


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## Johnny

Just a short note on the CCP - - - so many people now are getting the permits
without any actual "training" of accuracy under duress and limited vision (shooting in the dark).
Being retired military, my DD-214 automatically qualifies me for the permit, with no current training
what-so-ever (which is scary) because I have seen so many military that can't shoot worth a ding dang.
After I got my very first CCP long time ago, I took a free training class with Gary Belcher 
in Jacksonville, FL Fraternal Order of Police. He had a very colorful career of the Presidential Secret Service,
body guard for foreign dignitaries, etc . . . and he will ENSURE that you are safe - before he signs you off.
His number one point that still sticks with me to this day is - - - - *the ORBIT, get the ORBIT *!!!
(which is the eye socket). Even a BB from a pellet pistol in the orbit can put down the biggest
bruisers. Then, the .22 can ruin his day, .38 and up - Goodnight Irene !! the threat is DOWN.
Forget about the body mass shot - many bad guys wear armor these days.

A new thread about the North Hollywood shootout would be entertaining, as well as educational
just from what we have learned since then - about what could/should have been done.




.


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## satx78247

PSG-1,

100% TRUE. = Fwiw, I carry concealed essentially 24/365, EXCEPT where such carry is PROHIBITED by law.
(Such locations here in TX usually have police or armed security. - I actively AVOID those places that are "gun-free zones" but which have NO armed personnel to protect innocents from harm.)

I also want EVERYONE, who carries concealed/openly, to be a GOOD SHOT & USE EXCELLENT JUDGEMENT when employing deadly force in ANY situation.
(To quote The Senior Captain of our Ranger Service, "A trained & armed person is the BEST single preventive of violent crime. We need more such well-trained & competent marksmen, who can keep their head in an emergency situation, to be licensed." = Btw, The Senior Captain is THE senior Texas Ranger.)

NOTE: Since 1950 (the earliest year for which we have data on such things), there have been exactly TWO "mass shootings" that did NOT occur in the so-called, "GUN-FREE ZONES". = That FACT should tell any LIB exactly how FOOLISH that having "gun-free zones" is. - Such places are an open INVITATION to CRIMINALS, CRAZIES & TERRORISTS.

just my OPINIONS, satx


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## satx78247

Barefoot_Johnny,

WELL SAID in every respect.
(I personally use a quart oil cans as targets on our farm's pistol range & strongly encourage "licensed persons" to NOT carry on our property until/unless they can routinely "bounce" a can at 15M or more. 
(It's "very convenient" for our family to invite "newcomers" down to the range for a short course of fire.)

NOTE: in "officer involved shooting incidents" it is RARE for ANY person to be wounded or killed with a handgun beyond 10M, regardless of the number of rounds fired.

yours, satx


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