# The difference between All-Wheel drive & 4 Wheel drive



## richg99 (Nov 6, 2018)

You probably knew this, but I didn't.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a24663372/all-wheel-drive-four-wheel-drive-differences-explained/?source=nl&utm_source=nl_pop&utm_medium=email&date=100118

richg99


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## LDUBS (Nov 6, 2018)

I knew there was a difference but didn't know what it was. Some time back my wife had a BMW X3 with all wheel drive. It was a nice driving car but a nightmare to maintain. At 5 years and 45K miles they said it needed a new transfer case ($$$$$$$). I picked it up at the BMW shop. Drove it to Honda. Explained the issue and still got a decent trade-in. Mrs Ldubs still drives the Honda CRV, which has been a fantastic car now for 7 years. Still looks like a new car.


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## ppine (Nov 7, 2018)

Both drive trains just get you stuck in worse places.


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## bcbouy (Nov 7, 2018)

i think that may be just you.


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## LDUBS (Nov 7, 2018)

Seems to me that way back when the forest rangers were driving 2WD dodge trucks. Probably with a 6 cyl.

Edit: Huh, I guess this really has nothing to do with this thread. My mind must be wandering again. Haha


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## Stumpalump (Nov 7, 2018)

You will look good in that new Ford Rapture Rich. Let us know what color you get....


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## richg99 (Nov 7, 2018)

No Fords/Chevys/Rams for this old guy. I spent 50 years buying US vehicles. My last one was a brand new Ford Expedition. Never again.

Toyota or Honda for my last vehicles.


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## LDUBS (Nov 7, 2018)

My Nissan Titan was put together in Mississippi. Some parts from Japan but engine was made in Tennessee. I have to say that in 12 years I've not had any issues other than a recall about an electric fan that sits in front of the radiator. 9,200# towing capacity. Gas mileage sucks. 

I had an Expedition before the Titan. It was OK, but not without some issues that I could have done without.


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## richg99 (Nov 8, 2018)

Yeah, I might also consider a Nissan, too. 

Happens that we toured the Tennessee Nissan plant this Summer. Quite an impressive deal. They cranked out 2500 cars a DAY from the facility that we were in!


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## New River Rat (Nov 8, 2018)

richg99 said:


> No Fords/Chevys/Rams for this old guy. I spent 50 years buying US vehicles. My last one was a brand new Ford Expedition. Never again.
> 
> Toyota or Honda for my last vehicles.



And I'll never buy from anyone *BUT *American Companies.....Yeah, I know the spiel, they're full of crap import parts too.
But ~ 650k on three trouble-free Silverados since '84, I'll wave my flag. Just seems patriotic to support the US worker *AND *the US company.


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## richg99 (Nov 8, 2018)

Oh, I did my US supporting for the first 50 years of car buying. 

Incidentally...It seems that I saw, a few years ago, a listing of what percentage of cars/trucks were built with parts from the US. If I remember correctly, Toyota had a higher percentage of U.S. parts than either GM or Ford. I'm not sure that we can tell anymore.

I know those thousands of workers at the TN Nissan plant didn't commute from Japan.


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## LDUBS (Nov 8, 2018)

My Nissan was made in the USA. Toyota Tundra is made in Texas. Tacomas in Mexico and California. Honda Ridgeline is made in Alabama. Crew cab Silverados are made in Mexico.


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## ppine (Nov 9, 2018)

bcbouy said:


> i think that may be just you.


??


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## richg99 (Nov 9, 2018)

I think he was just joking that you might be going into too difficult places, and, therefore, getting stuck.

I've actually read that the bigger, higher, and wider your vehicle, the more you "test" it. 

Ha Ha


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## New River Rat (Nov 10, 2018)

LDUBS said:


> My Nissan was made in the USA. Toyota Tundra is made in Texas. Tacomas in Mexico and California. Honda Ridgeline is made in Alabama. Crew cab Silverados are made in Mexico.



FROM:
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/05/coming-home-silverado-1500-production-heads-flint/

It looks like Mexico couldn’t handle the demand.

After sending some of the production of its light-duty trucks south of the border in 2013, General Motors will soon begin assembly of the Chevrolet Silverado 1500 crew cab in Flint, Michigan, according to MLive.

Crew cab production at GM’s oldest plant starts in 2017, with existing workers able to pick up lucrative Saturday shifts. Temporary workers will be brought on to bolster existing employees.

Why the move back home? It came down to buyers wanting an American-built truck, said UAW Local 598 Shop Chairman Eric Welter, and because GM’s Silao, Mexico plant couldn’t crank them out fast enough.

“This was just a need to satisfy their customers,” he told MLive. “We’re having a hard time getting the four-door.”

Flint Assembly already produces heavy-duty versions of the Silverado and GMC Sierra, but a 2009 investment gave the plant the capability of producing a light-duty truck. In total, the plant has seen about $1.5 billion in upgrades over the past three years, including a new body and paint shop — part of GM’s $5.4 billion country-wide investment plan.

GM’s Fort Wayne assembly plant in Indiana handles the remaining light-duty production.

Since the depths of the recession in 2009, Silverado sales have nearly doubled. Sales of all variants passed the 600,000 mark in the U.S. last year.


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## vfourmax (Nov 10, 2018)

New River Rat said:


> LDUBS said:
> 
> 
> > My Nissan was made in the USA. Toyota Tundra is made in Texas. Tacomas in Mexico and California. Honda Ridgeline is made in Alabama. Crew cab Silverados are made in Mexico.
> ...



That's great and we need to see much more of our manufacturing base for many products that have been sent offshore over the last 3-4 decades come back and be American made and provide decent paying American jobs again.

Back in the 60's and 70's a person could finish high school and get a decent manufacturing job that paid enough to comfortably buy a house and raise a family and have no need to go to college and pile on tons of student loan debt. The sad part is today many of those piling on all that college debt are not making even the equivalent amount of money these working the manufacturing jobs did back then and they had 0 college debt and started work earning a living 4 years earlier in their lives.


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## LDUBS (Nov 10, 2018)

New River Rat said:


> LDUBS said:
> 
> 
> > My Nissan was made in the USA. Toyota Tundra is made in Texas. Tacomas in Mexico and California. Honda Ridgeline is made in Alabama. Crew cab Silverados are made in Mexico.
> ...



That is fantastic. Seems to be some conflicting news out there as I'm reading Mexico is still making a lot of GM Trucks. Anyway, I hope you are correct. 

Things are not always as clean cut as they seem and plenty of foreign cars are produced by American workers.


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## gnappi (Nov 11, 2018)

My Chevy 2x4 Silverado was made in Canada. I bought it with 40k miles on it as a pristine garaged super babied nearly showroom condition vehicle. It has been falling apart since I got it... It's too bad, because I love driving it.

I've had Toyota and Nissan trucks that went forever for a dozen years or more with hundreds of thousands of miles on them with only basic maintenance of brakes, tires, and batteries for the life of the truck without one single issue like I'm experiencing with this... my first and last U.S. designed vehicle.


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## richg99 (Nov 11, 2018)

It isn't that we don't WANT to buy US vehicles, it is simply, at least for me, that the foreign competition is so much more reliable.

The Fords and Chevy's still don't get it, IMHO.


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## LDUBS (Nov 11, 2018)

richg99 said:


> It isn't that we don't WANT to buy US vehicles, it is simply, at least for me, that the foreign competition is so much more reliable.
> 
> The Fords and Chevy's still don't get it, IMHO.



Hope RAM gets it cause I just bought one with a V6 diesel. :shock:


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## gnappi (Nov 11, 2018)

richg99 said:


> The Fords and Chevy's still don't get it, IMHO.



Sadly, +1


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## New River Rat (Nov 12, 2018)

richg99 said:


> It isn't that we don't WANT to buy US vehicles, it is simply, at least for me, that the foreign competition is so much more reliable.
> 
> The Fords and Chevy's still don't get it, IMHO.






New River Rat said:


> ~* 650k* on three trouble-free Silverados since '84,




What am I missing here? FWIW, I can't drink your kool-aid, Rich. It seems artificially sweetened. [-X


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## richg99 (Nov 12, 2018)

I can only speak to my personal experiences. No cool aid here.


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## jethro (Nov 12, 2018)

I had a lot of good, trouble free miles with Toyotas, but they can't tow worth a damn based on GVWR. Owned 2 Tacomas that I bought brand new. And I can't afford to fuel up or buy a Tundra or Titan. So I got a GMC Sierra and now towing my enclosed snowmobile trailer and 4500 lb boat is no problem. I get 22mpg unhitched and with the sled trailer towing about 75 or 80mph I get about 13 which is very good. I would own another Toyota product in a heartbeat if they made something with reasonable fuel economy that doesn't cost half a hundred thousand dollars.

My only issue with my Toyota Tacomas were the frame... this truck- looks good yes? Good shape! Right?






Well this is what the frame looked like that same day:













Truck ran great for 220k miles, nothing but brakes, fuel and filters, but what good is that when the frame rots out from underneath it? So I bought a GM product so at least I am not surprised when it rots out.

Also, Toyota design development is seriously lacking. My GMC has both 4 wheel drive AND all wheel drive. Yes they are different and do different things. Toyota spends zero money on development. My '17 GMC which cost only slightly more than my '13 Tacoma has so much more features it's not even funny. Toyota is simply riding the wave of success and have so many blind followers that will just buy a Tacoma. Their complacency will be their downfall, especially when cheap vehicles are now $40k and up. Much, much happier now that I am in a real truck:


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## handyandy (Nov 12, 2018)

LDUBS said:


> My Nissan was made in the USA. Toyota Tundra is made in Texas. Tacomas in Mexico and California. Honda Ridgeline is made in Alabama. Crew cab Silverados are made in Mexico.



all one ton and 3/4 tons are us made, regular cab, and ext cab 1/2 are us made. If I wasn't such a cheap arse and bought a new truck I'd buy ext cab. The new ext cab is as big as older crew cabs. Honestly if I bought new I'd give the colorado/canyon with the diesel a serious look have a buddy with one it's a nice truck pulls down decent mpg, has enough ass to pull a decent boat or anything I ever tow. Little spendy but no worse than what anyone else offers that compares. He has been getting mid 20's highway with it, has pulled a trailer with construction job boxes loaded with tools and some other crap with it without complaints. I'd say with a set of helper springs it's towing capabilities would be much better. The air spring helpers I put in my old suburban were the single best thing I did to it to help out towing wise. The old burb has been good to me not too long ago it made a 5k road trip we did for our honey moon through south dakota/montana/wyoming/north dakota has 230k on the clock now. I rebuilt the trans at 207k, but I haven't encountered too many trucks of any brand that usually didn't have a rebuilt trans at the kind of mileage I have on mine. I have to replace typical things that would have wore out on anything with the miles it has like brakes, u joints, wheel bearings, and ball joints. But I would have been stuck with those repairs on any truck that I would have had with this high of miles. I got initially with 170k miles roughly. 

The titans have been good, but as it is with any truck they're bad on gas. Takes energy to tow and move a lot of weight that energy comes in the form of the ole gasoline. My suburban or any truck for that matter is the same way, if you need something with decent towing capacity it's not going to be the best on gas. I'm not a big tacoma fan have friends with them, and they don't get much better fuel mileage unloaded than my suburban does unloaded, but they can't tow as much. I'd really like to give the diesel the canyon or colorado a go with towing wonder what a dealer would say if I brought in a trailer to hook up to it for a test drive haha


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## jethro (Nov 12, 2018)

handyandy said:


> LDUBS said:
> 
> 
> > wonder what a dealer would say if I brought in a trailer to hook up to it for a test drive haha



I brought my trailer in to the dealership to tow it on my test drive. They didn't even blink.


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## LDUBS (Nov 12, 2018)

jethro said:


> handyandy said:
> 
> 
> > LDUBS said:
> ...




That was Andy's question, not mine. But really, it isn't a bad idea at all. 

HandyAndy, those Colorados are good looking pickups. I tend to agree in general that the Extended or Quad cabs (or whatever you call them) are the best looking. However, I still opt for all the legroom I can get so went with a full sized crew cab.


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## bcbouy (Nov 13, 2018)

i towed boats and carried a camper on my f150 for 10 years.rebuilt the crappy ifs 3 times.never again will i buy anything but a 3/4 or 1 ton american truck with a solid front axle.anything less is just a grocery getter.some will say ifs handles better,but how can i tell ? it's a truck.but that's my preference and it works for what i use it for.


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## onthewater102 (Nov 13, 2018)

Suffered through a family of GM/Chevy drivers growing up maintaining everything myself. Never again. The component parts they use are trash. They wrap a coil of wire around the turns in the non-stainless brake lines which always results in them blowing brakes anywhere after 100k miles, fuel lines have the same issues. Automatic transmissions don't last much longer than that. Cheap sensors throughout constantly have to be replaced. Fuel pressure regulators fail and are a nuisance to get to. 

4x4 models with the push button in-cab engagement use a vacuum actuator that has a vacuum hose routed too close to the exhaust so they tend to develop pinhole vacuum leaks that don't allow the transfer case to fully engage and you end up chewing the gears before the actuator failure is bad enough to throw a code. Complete junk.

Those companies failed for a reason and should have been allowed to die. That is the way of capitalism, you cheap out your product to the point that it's utter trash and your business dies and the competitor with the better product replaces you. The demand doesn't go away. Plain and simple.

The domestic auto industry in this country (perhaps with to the exclusion of Ford) is just another welfare institution.


Switched to a BMW X5 and haven't looked back. Would have gone with a Toyota but I couldn't justify the extra $$$ at the time.


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## onthewater102 (Nov 13, 2018)

Jethro - that frame rot was covered by Toyota. I know two people who have had the entire frame of their Tacoma's replaced by the dealer at no charge. One of them had over 350k miles at the point they swapped the frame out. Admitedly, it wasn't the best advertised program, but it was available and might still be.

I repeat...THEY SWAPPED THE FRAME OUT - removed the bed, the cab, the powertrain, cooling system, suspension, braking system EVERYTHING and moved it to an entirely new frame.

Find an INSTANCE where an american company did such a thing for a SINGLE customer and I will eat my shoe.


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## ppine (Nov 13, 2018)

richg99 said:


> I think he was just joking that you might be going into too difficult places, and, therefore, getting stuck.
> 
> I've actually read that the bigger, higher, and wider your vehicle, the more you "test" it.
> 
> Ha Ha


The worthwhile places in the West are all difficult. 
I made a living driving everywhere.


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## LDUBS (Nov 14, 2018)

bcbouy said:


> i towed boats and carried a camper on my f150 for 10 years.rebuilt the crappy ifs 3 times.never again will i buy anything but a 3/4 or 1 ton american truck with a solid front axle.anything less is just a grocery getter.some will say ifs handles better,but how can i tell ? it's a truck.but that's my preference and it works for what i use it for.



What's an "ifs"?


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## LDUBS (Nov 14, 2018)

vfourmax said:


> That's great and we need to see much more of our manufacturing base for many products that have been sent offshore over the last 3-4 decades come back and be American made and provide decent paying American jobs again.
> 
> Back in the 60's and 70's a person could finish high school and get a decent manufacturing job that paid enough to comfortably buy a house and raise a family and have no need to go to college and pile on tons of student loan debt. The sad part is today many of those piling on all that college debt are not making even the equivalent amount of money these working the manufacturing jobs did back then and they had 0 college debt and started work earning a living 4 years earlier in their lives.



We were just talking about how much things have changed. Kind of sad that now days college grads can't even afford to leave home (or pay their cell phone bill - Haha).


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## New River Rat (Nov 14, 2018)

LDUBS said:


> What's an "ifs"?



My guess, independent front suspension.


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## onthewater102 (Nov 14, 2018)

LDUBS said:


> What's an "ifs"?



Looks like a typo for difs ie differentials...only thing that makes sense to me with the other reference to a solid axle.


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## JNG (Nov 14, 2018)

"ifs" is independent front suspension. Fords version of this could be problematic at times on older Broncos and ptrucks.


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## vfourmax (Nov 14, 2018)

JNG said:


> "ifs" is independent front suspension. Fords version of this could be problematic at times on older Broncos and ptrucks.



Actually the older Ford IFS settings would change just by adding or subtracting the weight of a passenger in the cab on the other side.

It gave a good ride quality, but was not usually tire wear friendly because it failed to always maintain the optimum settings due to the design. Talk to any top shelf alignment person and they will tell you it is not a great design.

There were shops that did know the tricks though and could get reasonable alignments out of them but your run of the mill line up shops were a waste of time with the Ford IFS suspensions.


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## sunshine (Nov 14, 2018)

My next truck won't be a Chevy. I'm tired of their garbage front ends. Doing ball joints every 2-3 years gets old.

You'd think that 4x4 sticker on the bed would come with more than two CV axles and a transfer case, maybe beef up the suspension parts so it can actually handle 4x4 conditions.


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## jethro (Nov 15, 2018)

onthewater102 said:


> Jethro - that frame rot was covered by Toyota. I know two people who have had the entire frame of their Tacoma's replaced by the dealer at no charge. One of them had over 350k miles at the point they swapped the frame out. Admitedly, it wasn't the best advertised program, but it was available and might still be.
> 
> I repeat...THEY SWAPPED THE FRAME OUT - removed the bed, the cab, the powertrain, cooling system, suspension, braking system EVERYTHING and moved it to an entirely new frame.
> 
> Find an INSTANCE where an american company did such a thing for a SINGLE customer and I will eat my shoe.



Yeah, I know of that program, I'm a top poster over on TacomaWorld.com. I've owned two Tacos, both bought brand new but this one wasn't covered under the program unfortunately. Even with the frame issues I had I loved those trucks (or should I say cars). I would still own one if it could tow what I need it to.So far I've been pleasantly surprised with this GMC, it's been good so far but that is the question... will it be as good as my Tacos at 200k miles? Doubtful.


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## onthewater102 (Nov 15, 2018)

Watch the brake lines - especially seeing as you live in the northeast with all the junk we coat the roads with in the winter. By 100k miles or so they will be in really bad shape if it's the same as every other GM product I've had the displeasure of owning/ working on.

Enjoy that depreciation! 

I wish kids in car seats would fit comfortably in the back of a 4dr Tacoma/4Runner. Alas, we're looking for a Highlander.


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## jethro (Nov 15, 2018)

My last 5 vehicles have been all brand new, I'm used to depreciation. But that's the thing about domestic vehicles over the imports, I was able to buy a truck that stickers for $52k for $37k. On a Toyota you are doing well if you can get it for invoice or even $300 above. In my mind that basically negates any depreciation when you can get such a huge buying incentive. I'm not used to that since my previous vehicles were all Toyotas.

How come you can't get car seats in a 4 Runner? I would think that would be a perfect family vehicle.


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## onthewater102 (Nov 15, 2018)

I'm too much of a goon - I have the driver's seat so far back there's no room behind me. The FJ cruiser would have been my 1st choice but that's even skinnier back there. The Highlander has a lot more 1st row seat legroom.

I don't buy anything new, hence the appeal of this site for garnering info and ideas on redoing the boat. ~60k miles with good maintenance records is the sweet-spot for me buying vehicles. Usually 50% or more of the original value has depreciated away but they still have a lot of useful life left in them and won't decline in value out of sycnh with the remainder of their useful lives.


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## LDUBS (Nov 15, 2018)

onthewater102 said:


> I'm too much of a goon - I have the driver's seat so far back there's no room behind me. The FJ cruiser would have been my 1st choice but that's even skinnier back there. The Highlander has a lot more 1st row seat legroom.
> 
> I don't buy anything new, hence the appeal of this site for garnering info and ideas on redoing the boat. ~60k miles with good maintenance records is the sweet-spot for me buying vehicles. Usually 50% or more of the original value has depreciated away but they still have a lot of useful life left in them and won't decline in value out of sycnh with the remainder of their useful lives.



Just curious. Do you look at "certified" pre-owned off a dealer or rental car company lot, or do you buy from private parties? Reason I ask is my middle son is going to be looking for a new to him vehicle. He bought his current one off a dealers lot.


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## LDUBS (Nov 15, 2018)

jethro said:


> My last 5 vehicles have been all brand new, I'm used to depreciation. But that's the thing about domestic vehicles over the imports, I was able to *buy a truck that stickers for $52k for $37k. *On a Toyota you are doing well if you can get it for invoice or even $300 above. In my mind that basically negates any depreciation when you can get such a huge buying incentive. I'm not used to that since my previous vehicles were all Toyotas.
> 
> How come you can't get car seats in a 4 Runner? I would think that would be a perfect family vehicle.



Jethro, I just did something similar to what you describe, namely buying a new vehicle at $20K below sticker. I'm not naive enough to think anyone actually pays that MSRP but compared to what I paid 12 years ago, I felt OK about the price.


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## bcbouy (Nov 16, 2018)

i always look for lease return trucks.my last 2 trucks were fantastic deals with all the service records and extended warranties.my 03 ford was 2 years old and less than 30k kilometers and retailed for 45k,i got it for 22.5k and my 12 ram was 2 yrs old and under 20k kilometers for 33k.it retailed for north of 50k.


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## richg99 (Nov 16, 2018)

For quite a number of years, our only vehicle purchases were from Avon; Enterprise, etc. The purchases were cars and vans, no trucks. We were very pleased and might still be doing it today except for one fact.

It seemed, at least at the time, that none of the Rental Sellers in the Houston area had any vans that had dual air conditioning for sale. That was a killer. If you've ever lived where it is Hot and Humid most of the time, putting kids or passengers in the back of a mid-sized van without rear A/C might be considered Cruel and Unusual Punishment. 

I always felt we got good deals. We often did not have trade-ins, as those cars went to the kids. I have no idea how the Rental guys handle trade-ins. At least these days, you can sell the old vehicle directly or to CarMax. No internet was available back then.


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## onthewater102 (Nov 16, 2018)

LDUBS said:


> Just curious. Do you look at "certified" pre-owned off a dealer or rental car company lot, or do you buy from private parties? Reason I ask is my middle son is going to be looking for a new to him vehicle. He bought his current one off a dealers lot.



I hate to give such a wishy-washy response, but it depends. How much more is a dealer getting for the "certified" vehicle vs. what you would pay getting it directly from a private 3rd party? Is that worth the cost of the repairs that you expect to be made by a dealer to a used vehicle before they put something up for sale as well as the value of any warranty the vehicle comes with? 

Around here the dealers I've looked into do, at best, a half-assed job of reviewing a vehicle for damage and wear items that are required by law to be replaced. Some I've been able to negotiate with and make requests that the price is conditional upon certain items being replaced, but for the most part I see no extra value in buying through a dealer. To me, it's really a liability, because what might look shiny and new is really just the cheapest crap Chinese junk that will break again in 3 months.

What I do to make things simple is I look at the tires on vehicles at a dealership - it's a good litmus test of the quality of the dealer. Find some used cars wearing brand new tires, then lookup the tires online that they're putting on the cars. If they're the cheapest junk tires available then you can expect the same in any of the other parts selection made by that dealer and I'd just walk away from them entirely.


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## LDUBS (Nov 20, 2018)

onthewater102 said:


> LDUBS said:
> 
> 
> > Just curious. Do you look at "certified" pre-owned off a dealer or rental car company lot, or do you buy from private parties? Reason I ask is my middle son is going to be looking for a new to him vehicle. He bought his current one off a dealers lot.
> ...



Not wishy-washy at all. Pretty good rundown on the process you use. Thx.


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## LDUBS (Nov 20, 2018)

Kinda sorta almost related: 

I watched a show on the History Channel called "_Born Tough - Inside the Ford Factory"_. It was about building aluminum body F150's in Dearborn. Very interesting, especially the part about replacing traditional welding with glue bonding and rivets. Worth a watch if you have time and can access old episodes.


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## onthewater102 (Nov 20, 2018)

I've got it in the back of my mind to watch those aluminum vehicles age here in CT and see what effect the dissimilar metals used throughout a vehicle experience when subjected to road salt have on one another over time.


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## LDUBS (Nov 22, 2018)

I'll tack on a little nostalgia. I was looking at some old hauler photos that included a model by international trucks. Reminded me of the International Travelalls. These were pretty common in my neck of the woods back in the 60's/70's. I guess these might be among the first SUVs. Of course, no-one back then knew what an SUV was.

Anyway, sorry for the hi-jack, thread drift, or whatever you call it.


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## jethro (Nov 26, 2018)

That's awesome! I had a Scout when I was in high school. I don't have any pics of it but it was similar to this but was all beat up and dented and bad faded paint and rusty wheels!


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## LDUBS (Nov 26, 2018)

Scout's are awesome. I bet you wish you still had it.


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## handyandy (Nov 29, 2018)

onthewater102 said:


> Suffered through a family of GM/Chevy drivers growing up maintaining everything myself. Never again. The component parts they use are trash. They wrap a coil of wire around the turns in the non-stainless brake lines which always results in them blowing brakes anywhere after 100k miles, fuel lines have the same issues. Automatic transmissions don't last much longer than that. Cheap sensors throughout constantly have to be replaced. Fuel pressure regulators fail and are a nuisance to get to.
> 
> 4x4 models with the push button in-cab engagement use a vacuum actuator that has a vacuum hose routed too close to the exhaust so they tend to develop pinhole vacuum leaks that don't allow the transfer case to fully engage and you end up chewing the gears before the actuator failure is bad enough to throw a code. Complete junk.
> 
> ...



I hate euro vehicles when you have to work on them I find them much more of a pain than the jap vehicles or us ones. Maybe it's just me but parts are always high dollar it seems compared to other companies. The vacuum line 4x4 stuff was crap of the 90's dodge had it too, and it sucked as well. My burb push button stuff knock on wood is still going strong at 230k, I didn't have to rebuild it's trans till 207000 miles I felt that is pretty good lifespan out of an automatic that has seen it's fair share of towing. I haven't come across many vehicles in states that dump salt in the winter that haven't had brake lines replaced by 150k miles or so. Indiana is pretty bad about dumping way more salt brine, and rock salt on the roads than they need too seems any older vehicles or ones with some miles need brake lines. Heck that's how I got my commuter subaru forester for dirt cheap needed a wheel bearing, and some brake lines. It had 176k when I got it, my burb needed it's first brake line around 170k. I don't think it matters what manufacturer you get in salty road states brake lines are going to be prone to rust and replacement. I'm not a big fan of any of the 90's trucks other than dodges with cummins, but the cummins is the only thing that makes them worth a darn. I know a lot of guys with 2000-2007 with gm trucks with the 5.3 with lots of miles that's why I got my suburban it was cheaper than it's 1/2 crew cab or xcab truck brethren, but could tow just as much.


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## onthewater102 (Nov 29, 2018)

I understand and agree that any vehicle over time regularly exposed to ice treated roads will develop corrosion issues, my problem with GM is that the wrap the bends in the lines with a coil of wire, looks much like a spring, which serves to accumulate all that road gunk and concentrate it on the lines (brake & fuel) resulting in accelerated wear at those points.

Beyond that, I forgot another major gripe in that the rubber they use for the flexible connections between the hard lines on the vehicle and the calipers fails regularly, flaking internally creating, in effect, a 1-way valve that causes calipers to hang up and burn out the brakes. I'm sure it probably happens on other vehicles on occasion, but I've wracked up close to 300,000 miles on various imported vehicles without an instance of this issue, while EVERY SINGLE GM I owned (accumulating at least the same mileage, likely more) had this issue with at least one of the brakes, the Blazer had it on all but one wheel that I could tell.


For anyone not familiar with it, the rubber hose degradation issue is usually progressive, and an easy one to detect with an infrared thermometer before it gets so bad that it wrecks your rotors/calipers - just check the temperature of your rotors after driving the vehicle where you do a decent amount of braking. If you've got a fairly even distribution of weight in the vehicle then the temperature of the brake rotors should be roughly the same. If you're seeing differences in temperature ~5% or more chances are you've got the issue starting. The hotter rotor is the one that's hanging up.


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## handyandy (Nov 30, 2018)

onthewater102 said:


> I understand and agree that any vehicle over time regularly exposed to ice treated roads will develop corrosion issues, my problem with GM is that the wrap the bends in the lines with a coil of wire, looks much like a spring, which serves to accumulate all that road gunk and concentrate it on the lines (brake & fuel) resulting in accelerated wear at those points.
> 
> Beyond that, I forgot another major gripe in that the rubber they use for the flexible connections between the hard lines on the vehicle and the calipers fails regularly, flaking internally creating, in effect, a 1-way valve that causes calipers to hang up and burn out the brakes. I'm sure it probably happens on other vehicles on occasion, but I've wracked up close to 300,000 miles on various imported vehicles without an instance of this issue, while EVERY SINGLE GM I owned (accumulating at least the same mileage, likely more) had this issue with at least one of the brakes, the Blazer had it on all but one wheel that I could tell.
> 
> ...



What year blazer did you have, those s10 blazers were far from great I'll agree. The 4.3 didn't get much better gas mileage than a half ton suv like the tahoe, but yet it couldn't tow nearly as much. Then again how bad were they I still see tons of the pos things going down the roads these days, usually held together by what appears to be hopes and dreams most the time now. I guess I shouldn't have said the 90's were that bad the ford f-250/350 was pretty good once they started offering the 7.3 powerstroke in 94. I'm not big ford guy but I wouldn't mind having a crew cab or xcab f250/350 with a powerstroke and 5 speed manual from 94-97. I like that body style, the 5 speed they used was pretty robust, and the old 7.3 powerstroke are darn good engines. I know what your talking about with the coiled wire around the brake lines it's not just gm I've seen it on many other vehicles, but you are right it's just a area to hold crud and cause corrosion. I've done so many brake lines on various vehicles I couldn't really begin to say that any one make has better lines or not. Maybe some high end cars come with stainless stuff idk most of my vehicles have been older ones that I got cheap needing work. Most the ones are work on are other friends vehicles with higher miles they're trying to keep it going. Doesn't seem to matter what vehicle it is by 200k most have needed a brake line, probably due for ball joints, wheel bearings or some other wear items. My biggest gripe with vehicles now is I'm partial to manuals, and I hate that you can't hardly find any new trucks offered with a manual still and four wheel drive. The new automatics are much better, but I imagine that around 200k will still be the average life of an auto used in something to tow or haul regularly. I've seen plenty go longer on original auto transmissions but it's usually cars or trucks that have had an easy life. I'm not looking forward to what it's like to rebuild a 8 or 10 speed auto. Just give me a real gear box the extra pedal I'll throw a new clutch in and go.


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## eshaw (Nov 30, 2018)

Disclaimer: This doesn't apply to any person in particular so don't try to hand me my head! It's not a personal thing, just observations.

I listen to people complain about their vehicles not lasting and it just kills me. I'd be willing to bet that 95% of the vehicles on the road now days don't or didn't get the required maintenance that is prescribed for them. To each there own. You can also say that road salt eats them up and to a point this is a true statement but how many people meticulously wash their vehicles including the underside? A lot of the rust problems are brought on from neglect, and I agree that some of the styling on a vehicle can promote it. True, some problems are from using cheaper components with shorter lives but they do this for a reason, people don't spend the money on the manufacturers products because they charge too much. This is how they keep prices down plain and simple. I don't like it and neither do you but who wants to pay for the difference in price when they use quality components? The manufacturers have to stay competitive somehow or they lose customer base and eventually will fold if they can't make a profit. This is why the government bailed out almost all the manufacturers and to save jobs. That would have left you at the mercy of the off shore manufacturers and a lot of them are subsidized by their countries for component manufacturing or the end product. There are also a lot of people that don't know how to use what they have correctly and in doing so when it fails prematurely place the blame on the manufacturer. This is my take on vehicles. People get what they pay for and when they buy a cheaper model to save money are they really saving money in the long run? I think a lot of the problem is consumers buy but rarely factor in what it costs to maintain a vehicle and the vehicle gets neglected. We all figure insurance, tags and gas but most don't figure in what the associated costs are that go into owning a vehicle. I could go on and on. (Dear god I hope he doesn't!) I just don't think it's fair to place all the blame on the manufacturing community is all.


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## New River Rat (Dec 3, 2018)

eshaw, I think you've nailed it. Many need to read *AND *understand what you've typed. I remember hearing back in the '70's after the laughter died down about the datsuns and 'yotas and how the [strike]jap[/strike]crap looked like toys. Then it seems everyone jumped on the " 'yotas last forever" bandwagon. Huh? My GMs do as well, because of the required maintenance. As I have stated,ad nauseam, my THREE new small block Chevrolet's since 1984 have NEVER had an internal issue, nor seen the light of day. In my not so humble opinion, the purchase of an American built vehicle from an American company is as patriotic as the "_Pledge of Allegiance_" can allow. I keep hearing how we support our troops, our first responders, our folks that serve and protect. I think we can take that a bit further and support as "American" (you know, the Republic mention in pledging allegiance) as we can.

disclaimer: Just my opinion, I may be wrong.......


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## LDUBS (Jan 5, 2019)

New River Rat said:


> In my not so humble opinion, the purchase of an American built vehicle from an American company is as patriotic as the "_Pledge of Allegiance_" can allow. I keep hearing how we support our troops, our first responders, our folks that serve and protect. I think we can take that a bit further and support as "American" (you know, the Republic mention in pledging allegiance) as we can.
> 
> disclaimer: Just my opinion, I may be wrong.......



Shoot, I certainly agree, except I would support all built in America by American workers.


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## jtsull (Jan 7, 2019)

All wheel drive; example AWD jeeps and my AWD infiniti. No way to take them out of "all-wheel-drive" and run in ONLY two wheel drive. They are in two wheel drive with the other two activating (via a hydraulic coupling) when slippage happens. 

4 wheel drive; example Chevy Silverado and I imagine other pick ups, there is a switch to run in auto (similar to all wheel drive), two wheel drive, and 4 wheel drive Hi or LO (locked).

At least that's my thoughts..


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## LDUBS (Jan 7, 2019)

jtsull said:


> 4 wheel drive; example Chevy Silverado and I imagine other pick ups, there is a switch to run in auto (similar to all wheel drive), two wheel drive, and 4 wheel drive Hi or LO (locked).
> 
> At least that's my thoughts..



What you describe here is exactly how my RAM truck works. So far I've had it in 4WD auto, 4WD hi & 4WD low just to make sure it works.


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