# Invasive species



## New River Rat

I'm constantly making the remark that, if I go chasing New River smallies this time of year, I just want one bite.

Water temp 40, air temp 38, high, clear flow, pre-weather front.

Wrong species.


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## KMixson

That fish has a little larger mouth than a smallie. :LOL2:


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## LDUBS

We don't have those fish out here so I know little about them, including how large they get. That looks like a heck of a catch and I would imagine the gear for small mouths is a little lighter than you would use for a musky. Thanks for sharing.


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## onthewater102

It's still a damned slimer...even if it's a big one LOL


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## richg99

If that is a "fail" day, I'd still be happy with it. I like muskies; and smallies; and LM Bass and....etc. etc. etc.


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## KMixson

How do you know for sure you didn't hook a smallie and this fish ate your smallie?


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## New River Rat

KMixson said:


> How do you know for sure you didn't hook a smallie and this fish ate your smallie?



According to my friend that is the muskie biologist at the V.D.G.I.F. for our region, that doesn't happen....yeah, piss on my leg and tell me it's raining, Joe Williams. Samples have been collected with their stomachs pumped, and according to his P.R. spiel, only something like 3 smallies in 200 muskies were found. B.S.!!!!!


The V.D.G.I.F. introduced these slime rockets around '70 or '72, and below Claytor Lake, they are naturalized. Supposedly, the stocking program there hasn't been used in 6 or 7 years. Yeah, now we are over loaded with stunted muskies and trophy (20"+) smallmouth are rather scarce.


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## LDUBS

Holy cow, if that is a stunted muskie you are going to need a bigger boat for a regular sized one. :shock:


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## New River Rat

A few over the years.....


https://s684.photobucket.com/user/newrivercat/library/fishing/muskies?sort=3&page=1


I'm guessing the [strike]12th[/strike] 14th pic was a 50"er, never measured. Since about 2000, I'm guessing close to 100 or so. Maybe 6 over 45".


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## New River Rat

Today turned out better, at least I found the correct species.


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## LDUBS

It is official. This is the first TinBoat 2019 fishing report!! Keep them coming.


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## BigTerp

New River Rat said:


> KMixson said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know for sure you didn't hook a smallie and this fish ate your smallie?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to my friend that is the muskie biologist at the V.D.G.I.F. for our region, that doesn't happen....yeah, piss on my leg and tell me it's raining, Joe Williams. Samples have been collected with their stomachs pumped, and according to his P.R. spiel, only something like 3 smallies in 200 muskies were found. B.S.!!!!!
> 
> 
> The V.D.G.I.F. introduced these slime rockets around '70 or '72, and below Claytor Lake, they are naturalized. Supposedly, the stocking program there hasn't been used in 6 or 7 years. Yeah, now we are over loaded with stunted muskies and trophy (20"+) smallmouth are rather scarce.
Click to expand...


I tend to agree with your buddy. The Susquehanna, although an obviously different fishery, is home to both muskie and flathead catfish yet is still one of the premier smallmouth fisheries in the country. The same with the Potomac in regards to muskie and flathead. Although the Potomac was never, and will never be the smallmouth fishery the Susquehanna is, there has been an explosion of flathead in recent years with a still very healthy muskie population (state record of 49" caught just 2 years ago) and I haven't seen a decline in smallmouth fishing one bit. I think guys are also finding out the same in the lower Potomac in regards to the snakeheads. 

Now, with all of that said I used to think the muskie and booming flathead populations were going to ruin my local waters for smallmouth. But with years of evidence (out fishing) I couldn't back that hypothesis up. Hopefully the future provides the same evidence.


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## handyandy

I'd be fishing for muskie if they were so prolific you can't catch a smallie over them. I love some smallies, but also really love some pike/muskie. If you hate them then keep your limit of them to eat, they're decent table fair.


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## New River Rat

handyandy said:


> I'd be fishing for muskie if they were so prolific you can't catch a smallie over them. I love some smallies, but also really love some pike/muskie. If you hate them then keep your limit of them to eat, they're decent table fair.



Andy, to me that is akin to going to a restaurant, ordering a rare porterhouse and being served fried Spam. Ain't what I'm after.


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## LDUBS

SPAM = *SP*ecial *A*ll purpose *M*eat.


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## ppine

In the US we have moved species around for at least 150 years. It is hard to tell what species are actually native unless you look it up. 

In the West, German browns, kokanee, and lake trout are often introduced. So are bass and pike. 

The native species are mostly rainbows, cutthroats, salmon and steelhead. There are many local endemic species with relatively small ranges. 

It is only recently that Fish and Game Depts have started to pay attention to the original ranges of native fish species.


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## LDUBS

ppine said:


> In the US we have moved species around for at least 150 years. It is hard to tell what species are actually native unless you look it up.
> 
> In the West, German browns, kokanee, and lake trout are often introduced. So are bass and pike.
> 
> The native species are mostly rainbows, cutthroats, salmon and steelhead. There are many local endemic species with relatively small ranges.
> 
> It is only recently that Fish and Game Depts have started to pay attention to the original ranges of native fish species.




There is a small water company reservoir near me that is stocked with rainbows among other things. Some time ago a fringe group went to court and got an injunction to stop the state DFW from planting rainbows at the reservoir. Said the rainbows would harm the native species. Thing is, I'm not sure what native species would have been there prior to the dam being built. Frogs & lizards maybe. From what I read, the same group tried unsuccessfully to stop all state and private hatchery stocking subject to environmental studies. They lost in court.


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## onthewater102

How many similar frivolous suits tie up our legal system top to bottom.

FFS...it's a reservoir...it used to be a pair of opposing hillsides divided by a stream. Go ahead idiot plaintiff...reintroduce groundhogs and deer to their previous inhabited locations...let's get you all locked up for animal cruelty so we never have to deal with this again.

Invasive species will inhabit an invasive ecosystem - plain and simple. Just don't let the damned slimmers in, that's all I ask. Lure stealing fiends belong up north where Canadians can deal with them.


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## ppine

Rainbows are native to a lot of the West. 
It is aggravating at times, but having boat inspections for invasive species like clams, mussels and millefoil are a good idea. 

Game departments have done a much better job of managing native species than Fish Departments.


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## LDUBS

ppine said:


> Rainbows are native to a lot of the West.
> It is aggravating at times, but having boat inspections for invasive species like clams, mussels and millefoil are a good idea.
> 
> Game departments have done a much better job of managing native species than Fish Departments.



I'm 100% behind whatever they need to do to keep those zebra & quagga mussels out of our Northern California lakes. I hope they don't discontinue the inspections.


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## onthewater102

Mussels are destructive and limit the use of the lake for recreation and as a utility and I agree on avoiding them - but milfoil in a non-natural water body when it persists everywhere around? Not the worst way of colonizing it quickly with aquatic plant material and raising the trophic state to support a diverse fishery sooner.

Same goes for round gobies (in bodies where the zebra mussels are established), rusty crayfish and alewives. They build an under-story for a large food web quickly.


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## RiverBottomOutdoors

The blue catfish is our invasive species here Virginia. I hate them with a passion. Freshwater rats is what they are.


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## LDUBS

_*"Just don't let the damned slimmers in, that's all I ask. Lure stealing fiends belong up north where Canadians can deal with them."

"The blue catfish is our invasive species here Virginia. I hate them with a passion. Freshwater rats is what they are."
*_
"Slimmers" and "freshwater rats". I'll have to add that to "ditch pickles" for slang fish names. :LOL2: :LOL2: :LOL2: 

I remember my Dad saying it was a "river trout" and to throw it on the bank. I think he was talking about a pike minnow but it I was so young and it was so long ago I'm not sure.


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## onthewater102

I don't kill them if I don't eat them - but I advocate against their introduction.


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## LDUBS

onthewater102 said:


> I don't kill them if I don't eat them - but I advocate against their introduction.



In the old days, 50 or more years ago, folks tossed trash fish up on the bank. Not legal to do these days. Might not have been legal back then either, but that was the practice of the times.


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## KMixson

My grandmother would keep any fish no matter how bad of a reputation it had. She would take it home and cook it up and you could put it up against the finest fish served for miles around. One of her favorite fish was the Mudfish, aka Bowfin. In her world there were no trash fish. If we killed it, caught it or harvested it she could cook it and you would be amazed.


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## bcbouy

funny.we're battling the idiots that keep trying to introduce the bass into our systems.keep them down south where they belong.bass are the true rats with fins.not to mention ugly as hell and more destructive to an ecosystem as you can get.


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## LDUBS

bcbouy said:


> funny.we're battling the idiots that keep trying to introduce the bass into our systems.keep them down south where they belong.bass are the true rats with fins.not to mention ugly as hell and more destructive to an ecosystem as you can get.




Interesting. Why would they want to do that -- for sport fishing? 

If they are not there now, I don't blame you for wanting to keep the ditch pickles, er I mean bass, from being introduced.


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## bcbouy

yes.sport fishing. when the dept.of fisheries finds invasive species they carpet bomb the infected waters and kill every fin fish in the system and restock it with native species.it's costly but effective.


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## New River Rat

RiverBottomOutdoors said:


> The blue catfish is our invasive species here Virginia. I hate them with a passion. Freshwater rats is what they are.



The biologists in Blacksburg (Joe Williams-muskie and John Copeland-smallmouth) both say the flatheads are the real reason the smallie population is declining. I suppose flatties are a convenient scapegoat.


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## RiverBottomOutdoors

New River Rat said:


> RiverBottomOutdoors said:
> 
> 
> 
> The blue catfish is our invasive species here Virginia. I hate them with a passion. Freshwater rats is what they are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The biologists in Blacksburg (Joe Williams-muskie and John Copeland-smallmouth) both say the flatheads are the real reason the smallie population is declining. I suppose flatties are a convenient scapegoat.
Click to expand...


It is my suspicion that the blue cat is what is keeping the flathead population in check here, although we have a substantial population of flatheads. We have a very unique case study here on the Dan river. From the last dam down to Kerr Lake smallies are a rarity and never mature. From that same dam up, very good smallie fishing. Literally, hop over the dam and start catching them. The dam acts as a barrier for catfish (blues and flats) and stops them making the run up from the lake in the Spring.


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## onthewater102

Cats are better suited to the warm water riverine conditions during the heat of summer. Smallies, as much as I love them, are just as invasive as the cats in those waters.

https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=396

I bet the blues are able to target the largest smallmouth that stay to the deeper/slow moving sections moreso than the juveniles. Flats and smallies coexist in enough locations I think you're probably right that the blues are the tipping point. Other than the mid section of the Mississippi/main tributaries I can't find anywhere else their range really overlaps significantly. Those Mississippi drainage basins are all afflicted with asian carp, probably relieving any resident smallies of some predation pressure while their young provide a huge food supply for smallmouth.

Left to nature everything eventually will get overrun by catfish and/or bull sharks...have you ever seen one of those destination fishing shows? They encounter bull sharks in just about every estuary in the world and some form of resident apex predator catfish in nearly every river system around the world unless they've been fished out.


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## New River Rat

LDUBS said:


> In the old days, 50 or more years ago, folks tossed trash fish up on the bank. Not legal to do these days. Might not have been legal back then either, but that was the practice of the times.



Ldubs, legal or not, I know for a fact it is a practice that continues to this day. Don't ask how I know..... :- however, it is akin to moving a beach one grain of sand at a time.


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## Mack in N.C.

New River Rat said:


> KMixson said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know for sure you didn't hook a smallie and this fish ate your smallie?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to my friend that is the muskie biologist at the V.D.G.I.F. for our region, that doesn't happen....yeah, piss on my leg and tell me it's raining, Joe Williams. Samples have been collected with their stomachs pumped, and according to his P.R. spiel, only something like 3 smallies in 200 muskies were found. B.S.!!!!!
> 
> 
> The V.D.G.I.F. introduced these slime rockets around '70 or '72, and below Claytor Lake, they are naturalized. Supposedly, the stocking program there hasn't been used in 6 or 7 years. Yeah, now we are over loaded with stunted muskies and trophy (20"+) smallmouth are rather scarce.
Click to expand...


3 out of 200 maybe a good number maybe not . depends alot on the river forage. I personally have had a Musky take a 10 inch smallie and lure from me as I was reaching to lip smallie. it does happen.


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## New River Rat

Mack in N.C. said:


> I personally have had a Musky take a 10 inch smallie and lure from me as I was reaching to lip smallie. it does happen.




Yes it does. This cast started with a 10" smallie on the line. BTW, 4# test-47"


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## LDUBS

New River Rat said:


> Mack in N.C. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I personally have had a Musky take a 10 inch smallie and lure from me as I was reaching to lip smallie. it does happen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it does. This cast started with a 10" smallie on the line. BTW, 4# test-47"
Click to expand...


So, at this point are you guys happy that fish & game introduced the Musky or would you prefer they were gone? I sure wouldn't want them competing in my lakes.


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## New River Rat

LDUBS said:


> So, at this point are you guys happy that fish & game introduced the Musky or would you prefer they were gone? I sure wouldn't want them competing in my lakes.



Personally, I'm pissed. I figure honestly, since 2000 or so I have managed about 100 of these stinking beasts.


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## onthewater102

At the expense of how many smallie targeting $6+ jerkbaits/chatterbaits/spinnerbaits over that time frame?

Slimey bastards


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## handyandy

New River Rat said:


> handyandy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be fishing for muskie if they were so prolific you can't catch a smallie over them. I love some smallies, but also really love some pike/muskie. If you hate them then keep your limit of them to eat, they're decent table fair.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andy, to me that is akin to going to a restaurant, ordering a rare porterhouse and being served fried Spam. Ain't what I'm after.
Click to expand...


haha man I like spam nothing like some slices of spam fried up in the old cast iron pan over the old white gas coleman on an english muffin with a fried egg on a cold morning duck hunting. Even so you outta try a musky or pike sometime pretty darn good eating, I love catching them wish I actually lived closer to pike waters. Our gen sets at work are primarily tested in Minnesota, and occasionally we have a guy from up there. He calls pike the minnesota salmon, he has brought some smoked and canned pike in before never would have thought to do it up like that. But was darn good on some crackers.


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## onthewater102

Harvesting them would be an option if the water weren't contaminated by GE dating back to the 70's. Thank you corporate America.


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## LDUBS

handyandy said:


> haha man I like spam nothing like some slices of spam fried up in the old cast iron pan over the old white gas coleman on an english muffin with a fried egg on a cold morning duck hunting.



Awww, the good things in life. This past Saturday I had fried eggs, spam, & hot cakes for breakfast. Nothing better. 

SPecial All purpose Meat = SPAM


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## handyandy

meh I'd still eat them maybe not all the time, but I'd eat them. I'd no complaints losing a 10" dink to catch a 47" musky. Apparently I'm the only one that doesn't have a shear hatred for the pike/musky. 

Catfish do indeed bass, I know because I have used live bass for flattie bait. In a river I primarily smallmouth fish spotted bass(kentucky bass) also inhabit it. Way I see it the spots are the biggest competition of the smallies in terms of forage, so if I keep a bass it tends to be them. Anyways in this particular river bass between 12-15" can't be kept, only two over 15" can be kept a limit of bass is four fish. Most the spots rarely get over 13" in the river. Some of the small spots I have kept may have made they're way on to the end of line for flat heads, and I have gotten some nice catfish on little bass. However I question how bass catfish are actually eating other than weak ones considering in most watersheds that catfish are present there are plenty of small panfish, shad, baby carp, minnow species for them to eat.

The invasive species I hate are the f'ing asian carp those stupids things are the worst, far worse than any pike, musky, or catfish. The things are worthless and over take a water way really fast. Yes they provide a food source for some catfish, but not much of one. Only the largest of catfish are capable of eating ones of any size. When they are little baby fish that could be a good food source for bass and cats, but they grow so fast it doesn't take long before hardly anything can eat them. I have had times I've gotten so many baby ones in a cast net I've use them for bait. They have caught fish for me, but if the bastards jump in my boat they quickly get their head bashed or stomped in. They're ok eat honestly don't taste bad at all, just a pain to clean cause they have a lot of bones. Most the ones I kill end up in my compost pile, which most the time before they even compost racoons or buzzards get to them.


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## richg99

Any new fish, IMHO, that eats plankton most of the time, should be eliminated if possible. They eat the food of our bait fish and cause no end of trouble.


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## New River Rat

onthewater102 said:


> At the expense of how many smallie targeting $6+ jerkbaits/chatterbaits/spinnerbaits over that time frame?
> 
> Slimey bastards



OTW, I was pretty lucky not to lose too many pricey lures to them. Floating a point A to point B trip one day, I did lose three Lucky Craft Pointers. I told my grown son about this. He said if I can't afford to loose them, I have no business throwing them. I let him know pretty quick losing them costs nothing, it's replacing them that kills me.

I suppose a good number of my catches were due to a smallmouth spinner bait I used to build. I had a design that would drop on the downstream side of ledges without being swept away by the current. The slime rockets would blast them. I built them on a .045 chassis and was forced to use a steel leader.


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## onthewater102

I like building smallie spinnerbaits on .030" wire but they'll never support more than one or two slime monsters assuming they didn't get bit off immediately. I got into building chatterbaits thanks in part to the toothy devils as well. Speaking of which - do you powder paint the spinnerbaits with an airbrush? If you do, what airbrush do you use because I'm having a hell of a time trying to add detail to baits with thermo-set paints.


My jerkbaits are somewhat safer because for most of the coldwater season the river isn't fishable due to a combination of the season not opening until mid-April here and, once it does, the river is usually dangerously high for another month or more with the snow-melt running off. By the time I get out there I'm usually jerking a zoom superfluke rather than a hardbait, so the slimers don't make off with much money if/when they bite, but they seem to have a taste for more expensive baits for whatever reason. They especially like the new out of the package taste - something about the combination of cardboard, glue and plastic really turns them on...


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## richg99

I can't help with much of your query, but....most every fish here on the Salt Water Texas flats has plenty of teeth.

A couple of things that seem to help
#1. Using thin braided line tied directly to the lure. The braid apparently slips BETWEEN the teeth and doesn't get cut off too often. (wire is better IMHO)

#2. One of the true "old hands" down here, who I think may have passed on by now, wrote the book on Texas flats wade fishing. A lure that worked then, and still works today, is a small gold or silver Johnson Sprite spoon. Rudy Grieger, the well-regarded expert, used to pre-tie/rig his spoons with about a four-inch piece of light wire, tied onto a swivel. The swivel was necessary because the spoon would tangle likes without one. The wire kept Spanish Mackeral or Ribbonfish from taking his lures.


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## New River Rat

If they got any paint at all, it was from a rattle can, covered in two part epoxy. Most were left in a "natural lead" color.


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## onthewater102

LOL - I'll take a picture of the pattern I make for CT when I get home - other than a different head mold it isn't all that different than what you've got there.


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## LDUBS

onthewater102 said:


> *. . . . . . they seem to have a taste for more expensive baits for whatever reason. They especially like the new out of the package taste - something about the combination of cardboard, glue and plastic really turns them on...*


*
*

Now that is funny -- :LOL2:


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## New River Rat

onthewater102 said:


> LOL - I'll take a picture of the pattern I make for CT when I get home - other than a different head mold it isn't all that different than what you've got there.


I had a guy pouring a 5/8 oz hidden head on a .045 wire. From the head to the "R" tie had to be roughly one inch. #5 Indiana blade in silver, about 5 different types/colors used in the skirt. Small surface area for hydro reduction, neutral, natural colors for the river I fish. Here's what they look like at work.


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## onthewater102

Of course I don't have any of the single blade designs handy when I went looking last night. This is another one that they love, albeit a double blade. The double frog hook works well over rocky/deeper weeds, but I have single hook setups for in and around weeds that reach the surface.


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## the hammer

Regarding invasive and/or dangerous fish. This is from NJ fishing regulations.

https://www.eregulations.com/newjersey/fishing/freshwater/summary-fishing-regulations/

Potentially Dangerous Fish

*The possession or release of live, potentially dangerous fish is prohibited. These species (see Aquatic Invasive Species) include Asian swamp eel, bighead, grass (diploid) and silver carp, brook stickleback, green sunfish, flathead catfish, oriental weatherfish, snakehead and warmouth. Anglers MUST destroy these species if encountered while fishing and are directed to submit specimen(s) or photos to a Fish and Wildlife Bureau of Freshwater Fisheries biologist for verification.* To reach a biologist, call (908) 236-2118 for north Jersey or (609) 259-6964 for south Jersey. These non-native species are likely to cause environmental harm to the state’s fisheries resources by outcompeting preferred game fish species. Common carp are an invasive species but are NOT classified as a potentially dangerous fish and do not have to be destroyed.


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## gnappi

the hammer said:


> Regarding invasive and/or dangerous fish. This is from NJ fishing regulations.



The "No kill" people see these state by state advisories but they just go on and on about releasing these fish back after caught. Those tin foil hats are not working


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## richg99

I fished some northern Wisconsin lakes. 

The guide would take an 16/18 inch Northern Pike/Snake/Hammer-Handle...and whack it on the head..and throw it back in the lake. He called it Eagle Food. They don't like small Northerns in Wisconsin.


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## the hammer

gnappi said:


> the hammer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding invasive and/or dangerous fish. This is from NJ fishing regulations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The "No kill" people see these state by state advisories but they just go on and on about releasing these fish back after caught. Those tin foil hats are not working
Click to expand...


I thought you couldn't put return a carp. That's why I went to go check it out.


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## handyandy

common carp to my knowledge in most states is now considered a naturalized fish and can be caught and release. You have other species of fish similar to carp like big mouth buffalo, smallmouth buffalo and some others that are native to most waters in the US that would support them.

It's the asian carp that are invasive. There are two kinds silver carp ones that jump, and big head carp which get really big and have big heads with big mouths. I've caught and have seen others catch big heads on lures like spoons, and swimbaits. Silvers I've never gotten them to bite anything. The little baby carp do work for bait I've caught hybrid stripe/white bass on baby asian carp, as well as catfish. The problem with the asian carp is they reproduce and grow very fast. Although the little ones do a provide a food source for other fish the time that they are small enough to be a food source is much shorter than the species they over run like buffalo, various suckers, quill back and other rough fish that serve as a food source for others. I'm sure big blue cats and flatties eat some of the asian carp that are medium sized, but full grown adult carp don't have any predators to keep them in check other than humans. 

Hence why I bash the brains in on any I get. I hate chucking them on the bank as it always irritates me to find rotting fish littering the bank around the boat ramp. So I take mine home where they either get cleaned and cooked occasionally, or chucked into the compost pile where usually raccoons or the buzzards get them in short order. So complain about pike and musky, but be glad you don't have asian carp. I'll take a toothy musky or pike that's at least a desirable fish to many over asian carp.


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