# 2-stroke motors a guilty pleasure?



## muddywaders (Feb 22, 2014)

I am all for clean air and water however in this time of rapid fossil fuel exploitation what relative impact do small 2-cycle motors have?A drop in the bucket.If Lakes and other areas want to limit pollution or horsepower that's fine. I am sharing the waterway with diesels and big-blocks.No government can tell a man how big a yacht he can build.To buy brand new 30hp motor for my 14' aluminum boat I have to shell out $5k for something that weighs nearly 200lbs and is made overseas.What happened to all the tooling used to make the old Mercury and Johnsons?-melted down and sent to Asia along with a bunch of coal


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## SumDumGuy (Feb 22, 2014)

shipped them the pollution too. It's ok though cause it's over there and not on this side of the biosphere.


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## Pappy (Feb 23, 2014)

I remember being told that, during the "heyday" of boating, somewhere along or around 1980. That the total "offroad" fuel usage in the US was around 1/10 of 1%. 
That would include any engine used for non-road purposes.


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## SumDumGuy (Feb 23, 2014)

I run my motors at 16-20:1 fuelil.

I, too, see no need to dump thousands on a "green" 4s.


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## flatboat (Feb 24, 2014)

if this stuff was so bad , why are there any fish left in any body of water . 2 strokes have been around a long time . i'm sorry but I thought oil came from the stuff that biodegrades on the bottom of the lake . I fish marshes and use a pushpole . you stir up the bottom it smells like methane .its the same material that was at the bottom of lake Aggasi in Minnesota . its called peat. when you compress it for a few million years it forms oil and gas , kinda natural . Its the same stuff that seeps from salt domes in the Gulf of Mexico ,oil off the coast of California there have been oil seeps there for millions of years the estimated flow from seeps in California alone is 25 tones a day ,not from wells from naturally occurring seeps . That's why they started drilling out there. oil used to bubble from the ground in the east . I guess I don't get it ,my little 2 stroke is pretty darn efficient in horsepower production .the hp to weight ratio is real good . There are a lot more cars than 2 stroke outboards . cars run EVERY DAY not my outboard . I guess the shrub huggers need to get their head out their a$$ and read about the world before they decide to change it ..... leave my 2 strokes alone ..... as always just my opinion


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## turbotodd (Feb 25, 2014)

We all know the benefits of 4 stroke. Cleaner. Use less fuel. Quieter. Smoother in many cases. More modern electronic ignition. More reliable. 

That said, nobody can change anyone's mind. Some folks have their mind set on a particular thing, and that's fine. I have my mind set on things too.

I prefer the 4 stroke. The weight is slowly becoming a non-issue. Comparing the 25 hp offerings. The Yamaha is big and heavy (the current 25). The new one that's on the way should cut the weight a good bit (or so I am told). The ETEC is still just as heavy as a 4 stroke so there's no advantage in that department, other than possibly less maintenance (or that's what they say...). Gotta run special oil, or it uses as much fuel/oil as any other 2 stroke would. Still no advantage-or not much of one. They say no maintenance for like 5 years. At 5 year first service, go ahead & pick up a new motor as your "service kit. Tohatsu/merc/nissan are all the same motor, slow, not that impressive other than being quiet and smooth (that they are). The new 'zuke looks decent but time will tell if they did their homework or not; it's still too new to know how it will perform 5-10-20 years down the road.

Way I see it, the 2 stroke stuff is starting to become harder to find repair and service parts for (due to the age mostly). How long will it be before the 2 stroke stuff costs more to repair (or find parts for) than a new 4 stroke costs? Just thinking out loud here. I was one of those die-hard 2 stroke guys for years and years. Couldn't get me to buy a 4 stroke for anything. In 2008 I picked up a little Grumman 1542 that came with a Yamaha 4 stroke 25 (2000 model) and the first trip to the water and I've been HIGHLY impressed with it. I still like the 2 stroke stuff but I hate drowning in my own smoke when I start it, I hate mixing fuel, I hate excess noise, I hate the rough idle and having to play with the choke for a couple minutes in cold mornings, and I hated having to carry a couple extra spark plugs...just in case. The ONLY downside to my current motor is that it doesn't use enough fuel. It goes old/sour before I ever use it up, and normally have to dump it into the lawn mower.


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## muddywaders (Feb 27, 2014)

This post was not intended to disparage four-strokes or any particular brand or technology.If someone can build a better mouse trap they deserve the the market share however enviromental policy has denied consumers a choice.Cleaner more effecient motors are the future but for many tin boaters fuel economy/range is not an issue the power to weight advantage of a carbed 2-stroke makes sense.The beauty of a small aluminum boat is that a capable watercraft can be had without a large investment which I believe is the spirit of this site.


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## bcbouy (Feb 28, 2014)

2 strokes will get phased out eventually,but i'll be long dead before they're gone.can you imagine a 4 stroke chainsaw? i'm not sure but i think my yamaha 15 is the last year of the 2 smoke.i trust it more than a 4 stroke any day.i will be getting a new spare 4 stroke for high altitude fishing though.


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## DrNip (Feb 28, 2014)

An ETEC only had 1/5 the carbon monoxide emissions of a four stroke and are compliant with U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), European Union (EU), and California Air Resources Board (CARB) 3-Star ultra-low emissions standards. Made in the USA too. Now of course this can't be said for older carburetor 2 strokes. Eventually older two strokes will be phased out due to age and maybe regulations but newer ones I don't see going anywhere.


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## dkonrai (Mar 1, 2014)

imho:

a tuned 2 stroke will start in one or two pulls, not smoke excessive, can idle down lower than a 4 stroke (4 strokes need idle speed for oil pressure), parts will always be easy to find, millions of johnson/evinrude parts out there, simple to work on, less maintenance, excellent power to weight ratio.

4 strokes, are heavier, but do run quite and give outstanding gas mileage. 

as for parts, its easier to find old 2 stroke parts than 4 stroke parts. many newer (199's to early 2000) parts are listed as nla. yes its easier to find carb or carb parts for the older two strokes. 

personally i have bought/serviced/sold about 60 motors or so in the past few years. imho a yamaha or jonnyrude 2 stroke will out perform any 4 stroke. (for now)

dino


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## fishinwrench (Mar 1, 2014)

As an outboard tech working on these things for a living..... I can't find a single thing about the 4S designs that I like. They are quieter and they are a little easier on fuel, but seriously....The difference in fuel over a days fishing just doesn't add up to much. It's better to go ahead and burn that fuel so what is left in the tank is fresher anyway, so having plenty of leftover fuel isn't always a good thing. You can either use fuel to push the boat or you can kill weeds with it....your choice.
The cost to overhaul a 4S is out of many families reach, and I'm betting that we won't see any 35+ year old 4S outboards still doing their thing flawlessly in the future. 
As hard as I try I just really-really- REALLY cannot like them. Not one bit. And I want to, I really do.


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## Gotem (Mar 2, 2014)

There are two natural lakes an hour away from where I live and they are undeveloped and act as the city water supply. They have 10 hp restrictions and no boats over 17 feet. If I put my 9.9 2-stroke in a barrel and run it, I'm just amazed on how filthy the water becomes and why they allow 2-strokes on the lake if they were that concerned about water quality. A 20 hp or 25 hp and 4-stroke only restriction seems to make sense.


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## DrNip (Mar 2, 2014)

How old is your 2 stroke?


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## turbotodd (Mar 2, 2014)

dkonrai said:


> imho:
> 
> a tuned 2 stroke will start in one or two pulls, not smoke excessive, can idle down lower than a 4 stroke (4 strokes need idle speed for oil pressure), parts will always be easy to find, millions of johnson/evinrude parts out there, simple to work on, less maintenance, excellent power to weight ratio.
> 
> ...



My F25 doesn't even need but about 12" of pull on the rope to start it. Not even a half pull. Starts great, when I use the rope starter (rare). Just a tap of the button and it's running. I have had it for 3 or 4 years (4 I think). The guy I got it from was a moron and let it sit for a few years, gummed up the carb horribly. I cleaned it thoroughly (ultrasonic) and have done nothing but normal maintenance since. Impeller over the winter. Nothing different than a 2 smoke motor other than the oil change (which is....really simple and cheap, for me under $10). 

It's easier to find parts for 2 smoke stuff for a couple reasons. Numbers. Theyv'e been built for about 100 years, so naturally there's gonna be a bunch of parts available. And they break more often and aftermarket knows that. More often meaning since they've been out for 100+ years, there's more of them and the ones that are still out there are becoming aged.

I've already explained that I prefer the 4 stroke, but keep in mind that I "was" a die hard 2 stroke fan until I got my little 25. It is an absolute joy to use. Had the 25 2 stroke before and loved it as well. Other than drowing in my own smoke and having to carefully mix up the oil into the fuel at 100:1. It's crude, but it flat works. Until someone forgets to dump the oil into the fuel tank. Then you get about an hour's run time out of it (at the most) before the powerhead is done. A crank-cylinder assembly for a 25 2 stroke (powerhead) runs about $1100. One for an F25 is about $1200. Not a huge difference. That said, I've never had to replace a powerhead on a 4 stroke. But I've got a slew of 2 stroke engines and blocks in the shed. Matter of fact, I'm going to take them to the scrap yard tomorrow, weather permitting. 

performance, is there a huge difference? Take a Vmax 150 2 stroke and compare it to a Vmax 150 4 stroke (the new one). They run almost identical. Holeshot to top speed. The boats that I ran were identical boats, one a VF150 (4 stroke) and one the V150 (2 stroke). They both ran within a few tenths of a MPH top speed. Holeshot win went to the VF150. Midrange went to the VF150. In a tournament application, the VF150 wins hands down. With 27 gal of fuel on board, the VF150 has quite a bit more range, so if for instance, I was at a big lake and needed to run 50 miles to the "hole", I could theoretically do it easily-with fuel to spare-with the VF150, where I'd be a little nervous with the V150. That's where fuel economy comes in.

there is no getting away from 4 stroke stuff. It's here to stay. So that brings up the question. Do we embrace it? Or do we cuss it and turn our heads the other way, investing thousands into repairing an old motor? IMO, usually trying to keep old stuff going costs about as much as going new (or new used), and with going to a newer motor, we're looking at less time in the shop...meaning more time on the water. 

The ETEC "marketing" is a lot of hype. The ETEC 25 will burn as clean as a carbureted current 4 stroke (speaking of 25 hp here, because that is what I know). BUT most people don't think about this. BRP rated it by using THEIR own special oil. And it is not cheap. If you are in a pinch and can't get it because the local bait shop doesn't carry it, you're out of luck. OR the other option, have BRP dealer re-flash the ECU to run any oil, but then it's just a normal 2 stroke, which also comes with the normal 2 stroke fuel usage and smoke. I've had a couple guys coming into the shop wanting to trade their ETEC's in on a new Yamaha F25, just for this reason. They fell for the ETEC hype, and while they are a cool motor, they're still just an overcomplicated JohnnyRude from 1960, and carry many of the same issues (and then some once you figure in the EFI issues). Oh and the ETEC 25 is not any lighter than most of the 4 strokes. 165 lb, IIRC.

There is no doubt that a 2 stroke V6 has a sound that will send chills up anyone's spine, and they run well. Just don't plan on passing any fuel stops, and don't forget to add oil to the tank 

What always makes me remember 2 stroke fuel usage is the old Yamaha watercraft. The 1100 and 1200 specifically. I had a Wave Raider 1100 for a while (they are a bad dude!). If I ran it hard, it would EMPTY the 18 gal tank in just over an hour. If I spent the day at the lake, with today's fuel prices, it would end up being WELL over $200 just in boat gas, and that's going home early. I did remember spending $250 one Memorial day, on fuel alone. Not counting a couple gallons of oil. And to think a big V6 on a bass boat will run through roughly 1.5x more fuel than that old jet ski did. If you were tournament fishin', you better have either deep pockets of a big time sponsor. Friend of mine just replaced a $5600 powerhead on a 4 year old 2 stroke 200 Mercury (holed the block during a tournament). Must be nice to have money.


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## Gotem (Mar 2, 2014)

The marine guy at BassPro was telling me some of the new mercury 4-strokes have the lower units of the 2-strokes and it causes them to accelerate quicker than the optimax. A different marine mechanic heard there is a rumor spreading that Mercury might drop the Optimax because the 4-strokes are doing so well.


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## DrNip (Mar 2, 2014)

The dealership told me that the ETEC can run on any brand of oil from the manufacturer but if I like I can have them program it to run the XD100 full synthetic which then you would be locked into their brand. It cost more but you use less and runs cleaner. My thinking is if I'm forking over $4700 on a new 25 hp, I'm not going to skimp on the oil.


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## muddywaders (Mar 2, 2014)

The majority of hunters and fishermen in my area use 12'-14' aluminum boats and would love to buy a brand new 2-stroke not because they are "die hards" or for any reason other than they are no longer available.In fast flowing rivers weight is a huge penalty especially at the stern when tiller operated.A boat that cannot get on plane quickly in fast current wallows and wastes energy-this is where the old 2-strokes really shine.Currently 4-stroke motors in the 25-50hp range can weigh as much as 100lbs more-thats alot of fuel,gear etc. Fourstrokes can be made lighter but at what cost.Eventually the price of fuel will negate these costs but until then for many applications the carbed two strokes are the best choice.In Australia where gas is very expensive Yamaha and Mercury still enjoy robust sales of there 2-cycle line.Talked to a few duck hunters in the lower river who love thier new fourstrokes and consider them a huge improvement over there old motor.One old beachcomber I know is on his second F25 and claims it uses half the fuel of Yamaha's 2-stroke version(he purchased the new F25 for $3000 from an Indian band that bought a bunch them but decided they werent enough power for thier fishing skiffs)I disagree with turbotodd regarding the cost of rebuild.After about 2000 hrs a two cycle outboard will show signs of wear-power loss,poor idle and hard starting.After new piston,rings ,bearings,seals and a quick hone you will have a new powerhead.No need for a new crank/block assembly.Does your quote of $1200 include heads,valves,timing chain etc. As far as longjeity goes the jury is still out.Can a four-stroke run at over 5k rpms for 2k hrs?


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## Motv18 (Mar 2, 2014)

The four strokes from the 60's still run today lame over heavy for hp rating but still run. 

I've noticed no real world economy difference in my 4s 2s boats. Dfi 2s the carb boat drinks it it nothing compared to the 4s I/o carb.


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## GYPSY400 (Apr 2, 2014)

When I bought my boat, I had the option of 30 2 stroke or 30 4S for $3000 more.. It's going to take me a lifetime to burn that extra 3K in fuel before it evens out. I do like the idea of the 4S, but the price premium between 2S and 4S is crazy.


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## ccm (Apr 2, 2014)

I was told this by my local outboard dealer. He's been an Evinrude/Johnson dealer for 20+ years he also sells Nissan/Tohatsu & Suzuki. He said that he wouldn't buy a new 2 stroke ( even though he's been an Evinrude man for 20 + years ) because to achieve the fuel efficiency and stay EPA compliant they run hotter to achieve the burn that is necessary for this. After working on quite a few of the newer 2 strokes he's not impressed. The four strokes are getting lighter now and most larger motors are lighter than their 2 stroke competition and it wont be long before this will happen to the small motors, he said. 

Me personally I wont go back to a two stroke ( unless I can find a good deal ) I hated mixing gas + the dang smoke and noise.


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## turbotodd (Apr 2, 2014)

I hate the smoke mostly. Even today, was test running a 25 Yamaha 2 stroke/twin carb motor in a horse trough. Just the first start I was gagging on 2 stroke oil smoke. Some guys like it, but I don't. Then within 5 minute run time, the surface of the water had developed a sheen of oil film on it, and of course also on the leg of the motor and gave me something to do (wipe it off) while 73 other machines are in the shop waiting and customers screaming for repair assistance. We ended up selling that old 25ESH, great motor and the guy who bought it got a deal. Sales was asking $1400 for it and bought it down to $1200 to dump it, broke even and took almost 2 weeks to sell. Clean motor too, with low hours obviously. Said he'd been looking for one for a while. They are all over the place, or I've seen them everywhere...but again, nobody wants to pay much for 'em.

Could it be an issue of, not so much of a "guilty pleasure" but perhaps more of a masculine thing? I agree..nothing sounds like a V6 2 stroke, and I mean nothing. But then again nothing sounds like an American pushrod V8 either, perhaps that is why the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger are popular-as well as the reason the V8 still outsells the 4 & 6 cylinder engines in pickup trucks? Ego?


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## BrazosDon (Apr 3, 2014)

Well, guys, For the most part I don't like having to have a title on my boat. I get a State tag every year for putting it on the State waters, get boat trailer license every year for State road tax and my uncle bought the boat motor in 1957(no title then) and I inherited from him. Then they change the rules and ask you to come up with a title after he being dead for 30 years. I was only 11 years when I got the motors and didn't know "stuff from shineola" as far as the law was concerned. My opinion is that grandfather the boat motor title.

any advice on the Texas law may help me out. Thanks


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## ccm (Apr 3, 2014)

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=347294#p347294 said:


> BrazosDon » 03 Apr 2014, 01:09[/url]"]Well, guys, For the most part I don't like having to have a title on my boat. I get a State tag every year for putting it on the State waters, get boat trailer license every year for State road tax and my uncle bought the boat motor in 1957(no title then) and I inherited from him. Then they change the rules and ask you to come up with a title after he being dead for 30 years. I was only 11 years when I got the motors and didn't know "stuff from shineola" as far as the law was concerned. My opinion is that grandfather the boat motor title.
> 
> any advice on the Texas law may help me out. Thanks



If you got your motor before 1994 then you should be ok without a title. But if not and the local GW is giving you problems about this then I would get a title jut for the peace of mind. A title proves owner ship & God forbid someone steals it and tries to pass it off as a motor they have had before titling was required. Here's a couple of links to TPWD's website where you can find the info on this.https://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/fishboat/boat/owner/titles_and_registration/ & https://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/fishbo...tly Titled and-or Registered Through TPWD.PDF
Hope this helps you out; I don't like dealing with all of the bureaucratic paperwork either.


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## lswoody (Apr 6, 2014)

After owning several 2 strokes including brands Johnson, Evenrude, Western Auto, Wizard, Mercury and Force and now owning a 4 stroke Nissan, gotta say I like the 4 stroke more. Quieter, no smoke, better idling, less plug fouling, less vibration, even though a tad heavier no big deal.


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## Loggerhead Mike (Apr 7, 2014)

Merc 50 is the only 4stroke I've had the pleasure of driving and it felt like a turd. I'll wait until I'm around a few more before I make a stance.


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## flatboat (Apr 8, 2014)

If you don't like the smoke , and have access to 100% gas , run klotz 2 stroke oil synthetic that stuff smells so good ! It will not mix with blended alky gas just a heads up .


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## jethro (Apr 8, 2014)

I know there are not many coldwater fishermen on this forum who troll, but that is one task a 4 stroke excels at. I have a 25 Merc 2 stroke and trolling down to 2mph or so can be tough and it smokes quite a bit. If the wind is right it can be brutal. For a salmon and lake trout I'd far prefer a 4 stroke, my next motor will be a 4.


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